The Contemporary Western Church’s Handling of “God’s Love.”

“Verses like John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have eternal life,” give abundant proof that the redemption which the Jews thought to monopolize is universal as to space. God so loved the world, not a little portion of it, but the world as a whole, that He gave His only begotten Son for its redemption. And not only the extensity, but the intensity of God’s love is made plain by the little adverb “so,” — God so loved the world, in spite of its wickedness, that He gave His only begotten Son to die for it. But where is the oft-boasted proof of its universality as to individuals?

This verse (John 3:16) is sometimes pressed to such an extreme that God is represented as too loving to punish anybody, and so full of mercy that He will not deal with men according to any rigid standard of justice regardless of their deserts. The attentive reader, by comparing this verse with other Scripture, will see that some restriction is to be placed on the word “world.” One writer has asked, “Did God love Pharaoh? (Romans 9:17). Did He love the Amalekites? (Exodus 17:14). Did He love the Canaanites, whom He commanded to be exterminated without mercy? (Deuteronomy 20:16). Did He love the Ammonites and Moabites whom He commanded not to be received into the congregation forever? (Deuteronomy 23:3). Does He love the workers of iniquity? (Psalm 5:5). Does He love the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, which He endures with much long-suffering? (Romans 9:22). Did He love Esau? (Romans 9:13).”

~ Loraine Boettner

The Great Heresy of the church in the West today is the heresy of the “Love” of God. Countless times, when the character of God is presented people will say, “My God would never be that way,” or, “My God would never do that.” But regardless of who the god of such people is, the God of the Bible is a God who is just and who is angry with the wicked every day and who hates workers of iniquity. The fear of God is absent from people precisely because there is nothing in God, as He is typically represented, over which anyone should have any fear. Why should a god who’s love is the love of a whore be a god whom men should be in awe of? Why should a god who’s love is all sentimental pious gush be a God whom men should honor?

It is the current doctrine of the “Love of God,” that is destroying the Christian faith. Because of this salacious “love of God” doctrine I have read articles recently that speak about the necessity of the Church to rethink accepting Transvestites and Transgender people into the Church as members. Through the invocation of this “love of God” doctrine I’ve read articles that apologize because the early Church adopted a creed that found God damning people for not believing in Him as He reveals Himself in Scripture.

The chanting of John 3:16 and similar type texts, as if they are some kind of Hindu mantras that prove that God is love the way a whore is love has destroyed the Church in the West.

Tuininga on Barnes … McAtee on Tuininga

Well, our favorite Ph.D. R2K wannabe is on the prowl again and this time he is putting Elders and Ministers in the dock over their failure to really understand R2K and their failure to represent it fairly.

Here is Matt Tuininga’s assault on Rev. Barnes,

Under Attack in the United Reformed Churches: Two Kingdoms Theology and its Critics
Posted by Matthew Tuininga

In the February 27 issue of Christian Renewal Doug Barnes, a pastor in the denomination of which I am a member, writes a column addressing readers’ concerns about two kingdoms theology. Barnes declares that the two kingdoms doctrine “currently making waves” is sometimes called the “Radical Two Kingdoms” doctrine because it is so “sweeping” and “vast” in its implications. Clearly this is pretty serious stuff.

Barnes goes on to describe the two kingdoms view as one that divides the world into two spheres, the redemptive kingdom containing the church, and the common kingdom containing “the state and all other social institutions” (there is no eschatological nuance recognized here). In this kingdom, he says, “God reveals his will not by Scripture, but by ‘natural law’” (emphasis added). To drive the “vast” implications home to his readers, he then affirms that two kingdoms theologians believe Scripture is intended for the church but not for “the life of the common kingdom.”

The church has neither the right nor the calling to preach about politics or other matters distinct to life in the common kingdom, according to Two Kingdoms proponents.

Yikes. If what Barnes is saying is true these two kingdoms people are arguing that God does not reveal his will about anything in the common kingdom in Scripture, and that pastors should therefore never say anything about marriage, the raising of children, relations between masters and slaves, or civil government, the sorts of matters discussed regularly in the New Testament. If what Barnes is saying is true, in other words, the theologians he has in view must be denying the authority of Scripture at best; they are outright heretical at worst. How many of Barnes’s readers come to just this conclusion?

Of course by writing, “If what Barnes is saying is true,” Tuininga is suggesting that what Barnes says isn’t true. According to Tuininga Rev. Barnes is either confused or he is lying.

Now why would Rev. Barnes write what he did? Could it be due to statements like this that come from Dr. Rev. David Van Drunen?

”For the historic Reformed two kingdoms doctrine (and mine as well), Scripture certainly has significant things to say about the common kingdom and its moral obligations before God, and of course what it says is true. So in that very important sense Scripture is authoritative for the common kingdom (as Scripture is authoritative for every subject it addresses). This is reflected in my recent book, Living in God’s Two Kingdoms, which explores Scripture extensively to identify many features of the common kingdom and their implications for how we should conduct ourselves within it. There is also no question for me (or for the historic two kingdoms doctrine) that as Christians appeal to the natural law in the common kingdom, either to appeal to unbelievers or to try to understand their own responsibilities in various areas of life, they should look to Scripture to correct and clarify their views on natural law.”

Now, get what is going on here. Van Drunen opens by saying that, “Scripture certainly has significant things to say about the common kingdom and its moral obligations before God,” but then he makes it clear at the end of this quote that the appeal in the common Kingdom is via Natural law. Christians might look to Scripture to correct and clarify their views on Natural Law but their appeal to “unbelievers” in the common realm is to Natural Law alone. Because this is true we can see that Rev. Barnes’ description of R2K was accurate in his Christian Renewal article.

And to underscore Rev. Barnes accuracy, Dr. Rev. Van Drunen comes to our aid again,

“But there are also certain senses in which Scripture cannot be taken in a simplistic manner as the moral standard of the common kingdom. For one thing, Scripture has always been delivered to God’s special covenant people, the Old Testament to Israel and the New Testament to the church. When Scripture gives its moral commands, it speaks to God’s covenant people and does not give them bare commands, but instructs them how to live as his redeemed covenant people. Even the 10 commandments begin with the introduction, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt….” Thus I think we need to be careful that we don’t simply take the commands meant as a response to God’s redemptive love and try to enforce them as such upon the world at large. This doesn’t mean that most of the commands of Scripture aren’t relevant for unbelievers too. But they’re relevant for different reasons. Unbelievers in the public square shouldn’t kill, commit adultery, or steal, but it’s because these things are prohibited in the natural law which binds all people as human beings, not because they’re in the 10 commandments which come to God’s special people he redeemed out of Egypt. Hence one of my concerns is that we be careful to make arguments and appeals in the common kingdom that are appropriate to the mixed crowds that populate the common kingdom, and not drop biblical proof-texts out of context.”

Note that Van Drunen here is explicitly speaking of R2K in the exact manner in which Rev. Barnes described R2K in his Christian Renewal article. Scripture is for God’s people and cannot be taken as the moral standard of the common Kingdom. We must not simply take the commands of God’s Word and try to enforce them upon the world at large. Unbelievers in the common realm are not ruled by God’s Word but by Natural Law.

Elsewhere we find support for Rev. Barnes Christian Renewal article from R2K’ers Dr. R. Scott Clark and Dr. D. G. Hart,

”They (i.e. – Christians) ought, however, not to enlist the visible church as an entity to accomplish anything other than that required by the Lord.”

What Machen’s example teaches is that Christians have no right to expect the church as a corporate body to seek the city’s welfare other than through the spiritual means of proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ.”

In both of these quotes what is being emphasized is exactly what Rev. Barnes noted in his Christian Renewal article and that is, quoting Tuininga from above, that “the church has neither the right nor the calling to preach about politics or other matters distinct to life in the common kingdom, according to Two Kingdoms proponents.”

So, from all this we see that what Rev. Barnes wrote in his Christian Renewal article was indeed true contrary to Mr. Tuininga’s suggestion. We would have to say that there is reason to believe, consistent with Mr. Tuininga’s words of sarcasm that some of the more egregious expressions of R2K are denying the authority of Scripture at best; and are outright heretical at worst.

Mr. Tuininga continues,

Labeling the doctrine “radical” doesn’t exactly set the stage for objective consideration.

Bret responds,

Telling the truth about the radical nature of R2K is the very essence of objective consideration.

Tuininga continues,

Who does Barnes identify as the leaders of this wave, this movement that is so sweeping in its implications? He mentions three names, Michael Horton, R. Scott Clark, and David VanDrunen. VanDrunen is the chief theorist, of course, but Barnes points his readers to the book Kingdoms Apart, which he assures them, has ably addressed VanDrunen’s troubling views (for evidence that this is not remotely the case, see my review of Kingdoms Apart here and here, and VanDrunen’s review here). The most redeeming thing about Barnes’s column is that he points his readers to VanDrunen’s book Living in God’s Two Kingdoms (although he immediately reminds his readers that they should quickly follow up this book by reading Cornel Venema’s critique of it).

Bret responds,

Well, we have quoted the venerable Dr. Rev. Van Drunen here so now we can see that what Rev. Barnes wrote in his Christian Renewal article was spot on. Tuininga then appeals to Van Drunen’s book but so many people have made hash of Van Drunen’s book that Tuininga’s appeal amounts to the “appeal to authority” fallacy.

Tuiniga then goes on to place Elder Mark Van der Molen in his R2K dock with accusations of “explicitly misrepresent(ing) the URC’s Confession of Faith,” and I would unravel the fallacy in that portion of his text except that Dr. Nelson Kloosterman has already done to Tuininga on his blog concerning his mishandling of Van der Molen what I have done here to Tuininga concerning Rev. Barnes.

To see Tuininga given a full Nelson by Dr. Kloosterman see,

http://www.worldviewresourcesinternational.com/bc-36-proverbs-1817-and-the-status-of-a-footnote/#comment-1341

To see the Bayly’s undressing of Tuininga see,

http://baylyblog.com/blog/2013/06/can-you-see-real-me-me-me-me-me

Andy Stanley On Scripture & Infallibility

Recently a video of a question and answer format with Rev. Andy Stanley was on youtube. That video has since been taken down. In that video Rev. Stanley said,

“The foundation of our faith is not the Scripture. The foundation of our faith is not the infallibility of the Bible. The foundation of our faith is something that happened in history.

Bret responds,

Here Rev. Stanley tries to rip apart revelation from redemption. Sure, the foundation of our faith is something that happened in History (i.e. — Redemption — Christ’s work on the Cross) but I could not know about Redemption apart from Revelation (Scripture). So Stanley introduces a false dichotomy between Redemption and Revelation suggesting that our foundation is the Redemptive act but denying the foundational nature of the Revelation that communicates to us the reality of the Redemptive act and its meaning.

Elsewhere in the vanished video Rev. Stanley could say,

“You can believe that the Adam and Eve were a creation Myth. That’s OK.

Bret responds,

Rev. Stanley goes on to say that he doesn’t believe the Creation myth because the Bible says so but because Jesus talks about Adam and Eve and since Jesus has credibility because he rose from the grave therefore Rev. Stanley says he can believe what the Bible says about Adam and Eve.

Of course the problem here is that the place where we read that Jesus talked about Adam and Eve is the Scriptures. So if you don’t believe the Creation myth because the Bible says so, then why would one believe it because a Jesus believes it? After all, the Redemption acts of Jesus are recorded in the Bible as well. Could not the resurrection account be just as mythological as Adam and Eve?

McAtee Contra a Detractor who is Contra the Athanasian Creed

Recently I stumbled upon the offerings of a recently retired pastor from a denomination that has historically Reformed roots. I thought I would interact somewhat with the the musings of this honored retiree. I have deleted portions that were descriptive of the gathering described. The context is a Episcopalian Church service the retired minister (RM) had attended.

Retired Minister (RM) wrote,

It being Trinity Sunday the priest in a strong and affirmative voice read the Athanasian Creed … I had never heard it read aloud in worship before. Frankly, I was appalled.

The Athanasian Creed is part of my tradition (Reformed), one of three ecumenical creeds (along with the Apostles’ and the Nicene)…. by now it is almost never recited or even referred to in worship, a ghost of the past, buried in the back of hymnals, hymnals that in many churches, if they have them at all, are never opened…

Bret responds,

We have hymnals. We open them weekly. As a congregation we together confess Christ weekly, in a responsive fashion from either the Confessions (3FU) or the ecumenical creeds as found in the back of the hymn books. A brief explanation is then given after the Congregational Confessional recitation. The old creeds are not everywhere forgotten and the back of some hymnbooks, where the saints who have gone before reside, are still visited. Though, on the whole, I’m sure the retired minister is probably correct. It is likely the case that not only is the laity unfamiliar with what lies buried in the back of those hymnals, but I would guess the Pastorate likewise is clueless. I would argue that therein is one reason why the contemporary Church is so inert.

RM wrote,

I will simply raise some questions that occurred to me when I heard the creed read aloud in worship and let you answer them.

Fair enough. RM provides the questions and Bret provides some answers.

RM wrote quoting the Athanasian Creed,

Here’s how the Athanasian Creed begins (in the Book of Common Prayer translation): “Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.” My own denomination has given the creed a more modern translation, which reads better but seems also designed to take some of the edge off the language of the creed. It reads in the part I just quoted: “Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith. Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally. Now this is the catholic faith: that we worship one God in trinity, and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence.” This seems to obscure the flow from the desire for salvation to the requirement for salvation, which is, according to the creed, adherence to the catholic faith; and which, strengthening the point, must be kept “whole and undamaged” (integram inviolatamque); which the creed defines as worship of the Trinity, “neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance (Neque confundentes personas, neque substantiam separantes). In other words, if you don’t have the right view of the Trinity, you will perish eternally.

Here’s my first question, one that came unbidden to me as I listened to the reading of the creed: isn’t this salvation by theology?

Bret Responds,

As personal belief is always inclusive of and is embracing some kind of theology we would have to ask, with more then a little incredulity, if what is being suggested by RM is that salvation has nothing to do with belief? (i.e. — Theology?)

If salvation doesn’t have some relation to proper belief (theology) then what are the parameters for membership in the covenant community?

If salvation does not bear relation to Trinitarian theology then why aren’t Mormons saved? Why aren’t JW’s saved? Why aren’t Socinians saved? Why aren’t Sabellian Modalists saved? Why aren’t Arians saved? (All Trinitarian Heresies.)

Now, of course we are not saved by perfect Theology, or by a perfect understanding of the Trinity. (Who then could be saved if perfect theology was required to be saved?) However even Jesus taught that there was correspondence between Salvation and Theology when He said, “And this is eternal life, that they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

Now, all the Athansisan creed requires is that our knowledge of God includes his Trinitarian reality. Surely, a retired minister of a storied Reformed denomination would not suggest that epistemologically self conscious Unitarians like Servetus could be saved or epistemologically self conscious polytheists can be saved?

RM continues to ask probing questions,

And, if so, just where is this taught in the Scriptures?

Bret responds,

I’m not sure what is being asked in terms of what is being sought.

I don’t think he is asking where in the Bible the Trinity is taught.

Maybe what is being asked is, “where is salvation by theology taught in Scripture?”

If that is what is being asked then I would offer passages like John 17:3 cited earlier. Jesus said that eternal life (salvation) is knowing God. Scripture teaches that God is Trinitarian. Hence, one can not know God if one does not know Him according to His Trinitarian reality.

Or maybe what is being asked is, “Where does the Scripture teach that the Trinity must be embraced in order for one to be saved.” The answer to that question, I think, would be, “which member of the Godhead would we delete the ascription of deity from all the while still believing that we could remain Christian?”

If we don’t embrace the Trinity, how is Christianity still Christianity? And if Christianity is no longer Christianity then how can we speak in terms of a salvation that is Christian?

To which the answer would be … “And this is eternal life that they may Know thee, the Only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

RM asks,

And, further, what kind of God would punish his creatures eternally for failing to get an abstruse theological point right? What sort of justice is that? What sense does it make?

Bret responds,

The Trinity is an abstruse theological point?

I’m sure the Sabellians, the Arians, the Modalists, the Socinians, and any number of assorted heretics throughout Church History will be glad to hear that the Trinity is not a theological point worthy of getting wrong or right.isn’t

One wonders what other abstruse theological points are not worthy of a creature being punished eternally for failing to get? Why aren’t the Virgin Birth, or the Resurrection, or the Ascension, or Pentecost, the Deity of Christ, Justification by Faith alone, Original Sin, Imputation, or any number of other core Christian doctrines also abstruse theological points that can be dismissed as points over which a nice God would never punish His creatures eternally? One wonders, what theological points in Redemptive history aren’t abstruse so that they really aren’t necessary to believe since a nice God won’t throw body and soul into hell for failing to get abstruse theological points?

Question — What Kind of God would punish his creatures for failing to get an abstruse theological point right?

Answer — A Just God?

Maybe the only creatures who will be punished eternally are those people who think abstruse theological points have eternal implications.

RM continues citing more of the Athanasian creed,

But this is only the beginning of the creed. It has two parts, the first a sort of puzzle poem to the Trinity:

The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too three are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

And on it goes, ending the first part with, “Anyone then who desires to be saved should think thus about the trinity.” The creed then turns to the two natures of Christ… As it does it doubles down on the theme that salvation depends on having the right theology. Again I quote from the older translation: “Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation : that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess : that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds : and Man of the substance of his Mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man : of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.” Once again the argument is that salvation requires right thinking, and right thinking requires the right view of a certain theology. What of those Christians who lived in the four centuries before the time of the Council of Chalcedon? Were they saved like Abraham by a grace extended to those who lived before the revelation of the Trinity and the Two Natures? Is this what Jesus came to call us to: the right theology of the incarnation? Just asking.

Bret responds,

Are not those with greater light more accountable than those with lesser light? Doubtless those with lesser light will be held to a standard not inconsistent with God’s full revelation but still as those who had less light. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required. Those Christians who lived with lesser light and still threw themselves upon Christ’s mercy, trusting Christ alone for salvation, will doubtless be saved. But living in a time of less light is no excuse to us who live in a time of more light to suggest that doctrines like the Trinity are inconsequential and shouldn’t be taught as a core doctrine of the Christian belief paradigm.

I might ask if Jesus is calling us to a wrong theology of the Incarnation? Is Jesus calling us to ignore the doctrine of the Incarnation as inconsequential and abstruse? Since the work of Christ is related to the right doctrine of the Incarnation, I do think that Jesus is calling us to a right theology of the Incarnation.

Does our Retired Minister have doubts about the Trinity? The Two Natures of Christ? The doctrine of the Incarnation? Doubtless he is perfectly orthodox on these matters but just wonders if the Church is majoring on the minors when it teaches Christian doctrine.

Retired Minister,

The creed ends this second and last section with another warning in the case that the hearer has missed the first two: “This is the Catholick Faith: which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.” … I wondered for a moment whether in that little church (where the Creed was read) at that moment I was witnessing the death of a creed. And I wondered if it mattered.

Bret responds,

The death of the Athanasian Creed may not matter, but when “Christians” quit confessing and believing the truth contained in the Athanasian Creed eventually, someday, one might find that it matters a great deal more than they thought.

Really, it is more than a passing strange Christianity for one to deny the necessity of affirming the Trinity, for one to deny the necessity of affirming the Virgin Birth, for one to deny the necessity of affirming the hypostatic union of Christ? Surely the Christian faith is more than that, but just as surely it is never less than that. Just as surely, not everyone in the pew is going to be as conversant with these doctrine as Doctors of the Church, but that fact doesn’t make these great theological truth any less important or necessary.

My favorite Memorial day story from my Grandfather who fought in WW II

My Grandfather Jacobs spent much of his life as a dairy farmer in Indiana. He was as rough hewed as one might expect given his less then tender upbringing. The man had a work ethic like no one I’ve ever met or known since. My Uncles (His Sons) tell me that his work ethic was even more intense when they were growing up then when I knew him and when I was around he was still working 16 hour days.

Grandpa Jacobs won a bronze star in Europe for disobeying orders while with the Big Red One. He was ordered to wait for ground support before moving forward. Instead, he cleared an obstacle from the road and continued to push on. I suspect there was more to the story then that but like most war vets he tended towards understatement when it came to these kinds of war stories.

However, the story I want to tell from Grandpa Jacobs was about another episode of his disobeying orders. He did not earn any medals for what I am about to tell. However, he may have slept better at night because he disobeyed these orders.

This story was told to me on Lake Michigan sometime in the late 8o’s or early 90’s. We were all on my Step-Father’s large fishing boat and were fishing. This is a story about the nobility of a man in disobeying orders.

My Grandfather was in WW II fighting in the Battle of the Bulge. As some of you know the Germans were at this point in the war so short on man power they had taken for soldiers those men who had seen too many winters or alternately too few winters. The German ranks were bolstered by the too young and the too old.

My Grandfather’s company captured some of these men (boys) in the midst of battle. He was ordered by somebody in the Chain of command to “take them out back and shoot them.” I can imagine that this was a fairly common order and in the heat of a intense battle such a order, from a certain perspective, is understandable. One can easily imagine that there was not enough man power to assign men the task of watching and keeping prisoners.

As he told the story Grandpa Jacobs told us that he told the officer who gave the command that, “I have boys not much younger than this age at home. I can’t do that.”

And he didn’t.

I don’t know what happen to those boys. He probably didn’t either. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if others were found to obey the order. There is a reason that someone once said, “War is Hell.”

But the fact that he disobeyed that order is the proudest live story I am somehow connected with from WW II.

And it also reminds me that War is such a terrible terrible reality that it should be pursued only as the last possible option and only in the context of Christian Just War Theory.