Conversation w/ Florida Bureaucrat & Former State Senator on Church & State

“Are you aware of strong arguments that government should abstain from all regulation of spiritual matters. Jefferson and Madison wrote clearly on these things. Peace between the states was not the motivation behind their viewpoint. Intent is difficult to measure, but you don’t get to impute your reasoning onto them.”

Don Rubottom (DR)
Former Oklahoma State Senator
Current Bureaucrat in Florida
Conversation on X

Bret responds

Are you aware of the strong argument that it is not possible for governments to abstain from all regulation of all “spiritual matters?” The minute the Government passes, adjudicates, and enforces law it is not abstaining from spiritual matters as all law arises from spiritual matters.

Of course you understand that all law is based on morality and all morality is the outgrowth of religion and all religion is the consequence of some God or God concept. As such all government descends from and reflect some faith commitments and as such governments are involved in “spiritual matters.”

DR responds,

“Yes, I am aware of full integralism and other such arguments. But what is “not possible” is often so because of twisted fallen nature rather than creation design. (It’s “not possible” for me to never covet again in this life. That impossibility does not justify or sanctify my wickedness.) While we may not see the dividing line clearly, Jesus did distinguish God and Caesar. (He also said “I have no kingdom of this world” and we know ALL nations rage against God.) Jesus never said Caesar must support the church. In fact, the worst thing that Rome ever did was the best thing that ever happened. God is sovereign, when you assign full sovereignty to Caesar (or Pope), you ignore His Providence working through each in distinct ways. 
Jesus said “Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar & unto God the things that are God’s.” Jesus never delineated what those things are. As Caesar belongs to God I am to render unto God, His Caesar. God OWNS EVERYTHING including Caesar. After all, this is my Father’s World.”

Bret responds,

When Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of this world,” the Greek there is emphasizing source so that what is being said is “My Kingdom does not find its source of origin in this World.” It does not mean, “I have no Kingdom on planet earth.” You’re mishandling Scripture at this point.

Don’t take my word on this Don. Greek expert B. F. Wescott and theologian Dr. Greg Bahnsen are my sources on this point. See this link for the citation of Wescott and Bahnsen supporting my statement that you’re mishandling Scripture.

Christ the King

Secondly, as to your response above I would note, it is indeed God’s creation design that all Governments serve some God or god concept. All Governments by creation design are hopelessly religious and are the incarnation of some religion. As Christians we should want our government to incarnate the Christian faith in its proper sphere.

Next, there is the issue of nation’s raging you bring up.. Now to be sure all nations rage against God but God promises that a time is coming when all nations will serve God. We see that prophesied in Micah 4 and Isaiah 2 and we see it fulfilled in Revelation 21. We are taught to pray “Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will Be Done, On Earth As It Is In Heaven.” The Scripture thus leads me to believe that though the nations may rage the day is coming when all the nations are under Christ’s feet and then the Kingdom will be handed over to the Father.

DR responds,

So our eschatology dictates our political theology. Too bad.

Bret responds,

LOL…of course it does. It does so for every single living human being. What one anticipates and expects in terms of the end then animates their every action so as to work toward that anticipated and expected teleology.

DR writes, 

Thus, if your eschatology is wrong, your political theology is also. All take heed.
Bret responds,

Absolutely. For example, you Don are clearly either premill or amil. Believing thus as you do that the world will eventually go to hell in a hand-basket you have developed a political theology that aims towards self fulfilled prophecy. In doing so, you’ve also denied the Lordship of Christ over all. To the contrary, I am postmill and as postmill I believe that the Kingdoms of this world shall become the Kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ. As such, I own a political theology that understands that all politics owes its center point in the teleology/eschatology of their political theology in the expectation that because Christ does rule, Christ shall rule over all nations. I expect victory. I expect the Gospel to cover the globe as the waters cover the sea and I expect Christian politics to have that same goal.

And, as I have said…. this goal is the same goal owned by every false religion including the false religion that wants a political theology absent the crown rights of Jesus Christ.

DR wrote,  

 Earlier you said that governments were hopelessly religious by way of creation design. I’d like to see verses in Gen 1-2. I see one sovereign and shared stewardship of loving, selfless humans. Why did God protect Cain from just human retribution? In fact, if there was government before the flood, it would not have been needed. Only after the flood was man given authority over man. To restrain evil. Which did not exist in Gen. 1-2.

Bret responds,

This is just silly. Of course there was gov’t prior to the fall. Are you really arguing that government only exists as a result of the fall? Adam was having dominion over his wife and all of creation as God’s steward. That was government. Godly government exists not only to restrain evil but also to promote and protect what is righteous as consistent w/ God’s Law-Word.

DR writes,

You know, I just looked through those 2 chapters and couldn’t find that.

Bret responds,

You can’t find where Adam is to be God’s steward in the garden having been given dominion? What version of the Bible are you reading from? Must be one of those progressive versions.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion (rule) over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Don, Adam was entrusted with governing before the fall.

Don, earlier you invoked the passage where Jesus teaches to give unto the Caesar the things that are Caesar and give unto God the things that are God’s and you invoked this passage to prove that there are two isolated Kingdoms (common and spiritual) that never impinge upon one another. Of course we all know when Jesus said “Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar & unto God the things that are God’s,” that Jesus never delineated what those things are. Christian’s insist that as Caesar belongs to God we are to render unto God, His Caesar. God OWNS EVERYTHING including Caesar. After all, this is my Father’s World.

Don writes,

My point was those things are not all the same. No co-extensive jurisdiction between civil and divine authorities. And we don’t need to talk about the exclusion of the Jewish Kings from service at the altar. Won’t mention that.

Bret responds,

As you no doubt know, the jurisdiction of the Church is to handle the keys of the Kingdom, while the jurisdiction of the Magistrate is to handle the sword for the same Kingdom. Distinct jurisdictions serving one overarching purpose…. the advancement of Christ’s Kingdom. There are these distinct jurisdictions Don, but they are interdependent. They are all responsible to Jesus the Christ and if anyone of them starts operating contrary to the revealed Law-Word of Christ it is the responsibility of the other jurisdictions to practice interposition in order to bring the wayward jurisdiction back in line.

Author: jetbrane

I am a Pastor of a small Church in Mid-Michigan who delights in my family, my congregation and my calling. I am postmillennial in my eschatology. Paedo-Calvinist Covenantal in my Christianity Reformed in my Soteriology Presuppositional in my apologetics Familialist in my family theology Agrarian in my regional community social order belief Christianity creates culture and so Christendom in my national social order belief Mythic-Poetic / Grammatical Historical in my Hermeneutic Pre-modern, Medieval, & Feudal before Enlightenment, modernity, & postmodern Reconstructionist / Theonomic in my Worldview One part paleo-conservative / one part micro Libertarian in my politics Systematic and Biblical theology need one another but Systematics has pride of place Some of my favorite authors, Augustine, Turretin, Calvin, Tolkien, Chesterton, Nock, Tozer, Dabney, Bavinck, Wodehouse, Rushdoony, Bahnsen, Schaeffer, C. Van Til, H. Van Til, G. H. Clark, C. Dawson, H. Berman, R. Nash, C. G. Singer, R. Kipling, G. North, J. Edwards, S. Foote, F. Hayek, O. Guiness, J. Witte, M. Rothbard, Clyde Wilson, Mencken, Lasch, Postman, Gatto, T. Boston, Thomas Brooks, Terry Brooks, C. Hodge, J. Calhoun, Llyod-Jones, T. Sowell, A. McClaren, M. Muggeridge, C. F. H. Henry, F. Swarz, M. Henry, G. Marten, P. Schaff, T. S. Elliott, K. Van Hoozer, K. Gentry, etc. My passion is to write in such a way that the Lord Christ might be pleased. It is my hope that people will be challenged to reconsider what are considered the givens of the current culture. Your biggest help to me dear reader will be to often remind me that God is Sovereign and that all that is, is because it pleases him.

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