McAtee Contra The Baptist Rev. J. D. Hall On The Meaning Of The 2024 Election

J. D. Hall Wrote,

“If you’re confused why MAGA supports the nomination of Tulsi Gabbard or RFK Jr when “they’re not Republican” or “they’re not conservative,” please understand that the paradigm has shifted. These binary concepts are no longer relevant to us; their hours have passed.”

Bret responds,

If these binary concepts are not relevant it is testimony that people they are not relevant to are not wise.

The binary concepts remain relevant because true conservatives have always desired to dismantle the Leviathan beast. The fact that RFK Jr. or Tulsi Gabbard are being inconsistent with their stated Liberal beliefs only serves the agenda of the “Old Right.”

Secondly, people like RFK Jr. and Gabbard need to be watched closely because their leftist inclinations will eventually resurface and when that happens it will be the Old Right that has to put them down.

J. D. Hall writes,

We are beyond “conservative vs liberal.” We are beyond “Republican vs Democrat.” The only binary that matters is “Establishment vs Dissident.” This has become a post-partisan world.

Bret responds,

The thing here is though that if one is to honestly assess this one would have to conclude that “Establishment” has always been the position of the left, even when those on the left were calling themselves “conservative” and “Dissident” has always been the position of the genuine conservatives. Ever since I was old enough to vote, being conservative, I have been in favor of eviscerating the Establishment. This has always been the position of true conservatives.

So, it really is not a post-partisan world. It is rather merely that the lines between the partisans has now been more clearly drawn.

J. D. Hall writes,

We are not trying to save our institutions. We are not trying to reform our institutions. We have tried this, and failed; we are, instead, trying to dismantle them.

Bret responds,

Most of the people I run with gave up on trying to save our Institutions when it was clear in 1980 that Ronald Reagan wasn’t really serious.

But note… we are not anarchists. One can not tear down without at the same time building up. It is true that we are trying to dismantle but in the dismantling we have a vision of what the new institutions might look like. And we are doubtful that Trump is going to be the chap who leads us to that proper dismantling and rebuilding.

J. D. Hall writes,

MAGA recognizes that that there has become a Uniparty, supported by a sea of bureaucrats, in a system designed to suck the souls of men. We are tired of choosing between Eurasia and Eastasia, Republicans or Democrats, liberals or conservatives, in a system designed only to perpetuate an Establishment that persists in perpetual power regardless of nomenclatures of “left” or “right.”

Bret responds,

The problem was never w/ the nomenclature. The problem was with the fact that conservatives were never really conservative. However, there has always existed genuine conservatives who wanted to see the Federal Government chained down with the chains of the Constitution — as Jefferson noted 200 years ago.

J. D. Hall writes,

The system has become a cheap facade, to give the multitudes only a counterfeit feeling that our support for one or the other makes any difference at all. Both sides are Controlled Opposition for a permanent Federal power base that is fully non-idealist, consisting of professional politicians and unelected civil overlords.

Bret responds,

I completely agree with this.

J. D. Hall writes,

Trump’s picks are picked, based not upon their towing of a party line, but because they tow no line at all. They’re not chosen to apply makeup to the pig, but to butcher it.

Bret responds,

It is not possible to tow no line at all. Impossible. If they butcher the pig they have a different pig they want to ensconce. Is anybody even now really talking about devolving real power back to the States?

J. D. Hall writes,

Americans no longer want to tame Leviathan. We want to kill it. It is not the time to build up. It is time to tear down.

Bret responds

I am not sure it is true that Americans no longer want to tame Leviathan. We will only know that is true when Americans demand the end of things like the Great Society, Standing Armies, and a return to hard money. Until then, I’ll place my bets on the fact that Americans still envision taming Leviathan.

Rev. Bret McAtee, Maurice Pinay, and Winston Churchill on the Jews

Rev. Michael Hunter was recently grilled (interrogated) by the ARP’s Grace Presbytery Minister and His Works Committee regarding his views on a number of subjects. One of the questions put to Rev. Hunter was as follows:

14) Bret McAtee of Pactum (Institute) has said, “Jews do in fact play a disproportionate role in the destruction of Western Civilization and the white race via the Great Replacement.” What is your view on this as well as modern Jews generally?

Rev. Hunter gave his answer to this question which was quite excellent but since my name was brought up it seems only appropriate that I answer this question also. Clearly, the ARP Presbytery in citing my name as well as Dr. Adi Schlebusch’s, and Rev. Michael Spangler’s in their loaded questions to Rev. Hunter was attempting the old “guilt by association” technique. The methodology was … “as Spangler, Schlebusch, and McAtee are clearly guilty as seen in the quotes we provided, therefore you, Rev. Hunter, must be guilty also of whatever it is we have determined they are guilty of.” 

Let me note that this observation about the contest between Jews and White Christians is hardly unique to me. Indeed, so obvious is the truth of this that it strikes me that the ARP MHW committee is implying that I am guilty of the sin of noticing and they’re guilty of not knowing their own Church history.

In terms of Church history my quote is confirmed by Maurice Pinay in his history book, “The Plot Against The Church.” In this book Pinay chronicles two millennium of Church history concerning the ongoing religious conflict between Jews and Christians. If the clergy knew their own Church history they wouldn’t even invoke my name or my observation in questioning Rev. Hunter.

Perhaps Pinay is not good enough for the MHW committee of the ARP? If not then perhaps Winston Churchill would suffice as a witness to the truthfulness of the quote they cited from me. Churchill wrote in a 1920 London Newspaper column:

In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish effort rise the schemes of the International Jews. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs. Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognisable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.1

My quote that the ARP referenced in questioning Rev. Hunter is about as controversial in its truth as an assertion that “if one falls into water one is sure to get wet.”

1. Churchill, Illustrated Sunday Herald (London), February 8, 1920, p. 5.

Bavinck Supporting Rev. Hunter

Over here a friendly conversation is engaged between Rev. Michael Hunter and his denominational chieftains;

https://www.thedailygenevan.com/blog/2025/1/19/answering-ecclesiastical-critics?fbclid=IwY2xjawH8ZfZleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHdn-3e92o5PGHgT68tN9rLrdJpLMjQ-R4dS6AsTpV4UgbG3QV4YyB9a6oA_aem_koqE9BAwXoOfHLkMhjtvsg

I thought I would add a few quotes by Dr. Herman Bavinck that might have found Bavinck in the dock along with Rev. Hunter before this august tribunal of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church. By looking at the type of questions asked of Rev. Hunter by the ARPC one wonders if they likewise would have been unsettled by some of the words of the great Bavinck.

“In this consummated kingdom, diversity will be preserved in unity. There will be little and great (Rev. 22:12), first and last (Matt. 20:16); the distinctions between ethnicities and nations will remain; {243} Israel and the nations [volken in Dutch] will not be dissolved into one another, but each will hold their own place and task (Matt. 19:28; 25:32; Acts 3:19–21; Rom. 11:26); the nations that are saved will walk in the light of the new Jerusalem, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory and honor into it (Rev. 21:24; 22:2).

Although all share in the same salvation, the same eternal life, and the same fellowship with God, yet there will be all sorts of differences among them in rank and position, in gift and calling, in glory and radiance. There are many dwellings in the Father’s house (John 14:2). In proportion to how someone on the earth has been faithful, spent his talents, suffered and labored for Christ, he will receive in the kingdom of God a higher place and a greater honor (Matt. 5:12; 6:1, 6, 18; 25:14f.; 2 Cor. 9:6; Rev. 2–3).

This rich diversity will not distract from unity, for all will see God’s face and be like him (Matt. 5:8; John 3:2; Rev. 22:4).”. 

Herman Bavinck

We have now come to a time where the insistence on racial, ethnic, and national distinctions is now considered as heretical. As we see with this quote that has not always been the case in the Reformed Church. But having embraced a kind of creeping Gnosticism we find ourselves in the same place as those ancient Gnostics. Having denied the realness and goodness of material realities we have now lost the ability to defend or maintain the existence of very real God created distinctions and differences. There is now among us a virus that eats away at the notion of the goodness of created realities in favor of a termite theology that eats away at the distinctions that were laid down in creation. It used to be a byword that among the Reformed that “Grace restores nature,” but now the byword is “Grace destroys nature so that we can all sink into the great one.”

That this idea that is now embraced by the Reformed world as seen in its treatment of Michael Spangler, and as seen in many of the things that Doug Wilson is saying, and as seen in this interrogation of Rev. Hunter is indeed Gnostic in its ideological origins can be seen in a quote from an early Gnostic;

“According to Neander, the Carpocratian system sees in the world’s history one struggle between the principles of unity and of multiplicity. From one eternal Monad all existence has flowed, and to this it strives to return. But the finite spirits who rule over several portions of the world counteract this universal striving after unity. From them the different popular religions, and in particular the Jewish, have proceeded. Perfection is attained by those souls who, led on by reminiscences of their former condition, soar above all limitation and diversity to the contemplation of the higher unity. They despise the restrictions imposed by the mundane spirits; they regard externals as of no importance, and faith and love as the only essentials; meaning by faith, mystical brooding of the mind absorbed in the original unity. In this way they escape the dominion of the finite mundane spirits; their souls are freed from imprisonment in matter, and they obtain a state of perfect repose (corresponding to the Buddhist Nirwana) when they have completely ascended above the world of appearance.”

But this was not the way it has always has been as seen from the Bavinck quotes as well as sundry others. Here is another quote from a 19th century American that supports Bavinck’s original insight;

“Let it be noted that the Gospel does not dispense with any of the relations in human society. … And it is the vice of many of the systems of modern reform that they sweep across the web of natural associations in accomplishing their benevolent designs—and fail at last because they cannot succeed in this disintegration of society. Christianity, on the contrary, comes down into the world, not as a law, but as a life. … It seizes man in the midst of all the duties which he owes to his home, to the community, to the State, to the world. It does not relax any of these claims; but under their united pressure it consecrates him to a new service superior to them all. Thus does the Gospel, in its refusal to blot out any of our natural ties, respect the active feature in man’s nature.” p. 352.

Benjamin Morgan Palmer
‘Obedience, the Law of the Will’, (II)


Bavinck was consistent as he would write elsewhere;

“God does not manifest his covenant of grace by ripping people away from their humanity and establishing a covenantal community outside of our natural state, but He brings that covenant into humanity itself, makes it part of the world, and ensures that it remains protected from evil in this world. As Redeemer, God follows the same path he does as Creator and Ruler of all things. Grace is something different to nature, but it joins with nature so as not to destroy it but rather to renew it. Grace is an inheritance that is not acquired by virtue of natural descent, but it is covenantally maintained through the natural relations embedded in human nature. The covenant of grace does not randomly jump to and from one individual to the next, but is maintained through families, races, and nations in an organic fashion.”

Herman Bavinck
Reformed Dogmatics

No Kinist could have hoped to have spoken as well as Bavinck here. Grace renews nature. That’s all that Kinists are advocating. Grace renews individuals, families, clans, nations and races. It does so not because of the greatness of what it is restoring but it does so because of the grace that is doing the restoring.

Bavinck touches the nerve of the Reformed doctrine of the covenant. By God’s own decree, God works organically in family lines over the course of generations so as to raise up nations that are distinctly Christian.  Does the Reformed Church believe this any longer or has it been so bitten by the post Enlightenment consensus that it no longer believes that God works historically and organically in families, generations, and nations? Look, one can’t consistently say they agree with this quote and then turn around and tongue blister someone for embracing the implications of such a quote.

Bavinck Promoting A Now Lost Expression Of Christianity

“The centuries preceding the French Revolution (1789) are in many ways different from the epoch that followed. The radical change of direction introduced into the life and thought of the nations by this tremendous event shattered the continuity of history. We can project ourselves into the thought and life of those preceding ages only with great difficulty. They were the ages of authority and objectivity, whereas in our era the subject proclaims its freedom and asserts its rights in every area of human existence… After the middle of the eighteenth century this situation gradually changed. The subject came into its own. It became aware of its true or presumed rights and slowly broke all the ties binding it to the past. In an unlimited sense of freedom it emancipated itself from everything the past held sacred. All authority that demanded recognition and obedience had to answer first the foundational question: By what right do you demand my obedience? Critical reason had been awakened, launching an inquiry into the ground of all authority. Naive, simple, childlike faith all but vanished. Doubt has now become the sickness of our century, bringing with it a string of moral problems and plagues. Nowadays, many people take into account only what they can see; they deify matter, worship Mammon, or glorify power. The number of those who still utter an undaunted testimony of their faith with joyful enthusiasm and complete certainty is comparatively small. Families, generations, groups, and classes have turned away from all authority and broken with their faith. Even among those who still call themselves believers, how many must screw up their courage into a forced, unnatural belief? How many believe as a result of habit, laziness or lack of spirit? How many act out of an unhealthy attempt to recover the past or out of a misleading conservatism? There is much noise and movement, but little genuine spirit, little genuine enthusiasm issuing from an upright, fervent, sincere faith.”

Herman Bavinck 
The Certainty of Faith — 1891

Of course the change that Bavinck refers to is what we retrospectively refer to as “The Enlightenment,” or if one prefers not to embrace the enemies nomenclature, “The Endarkenment.”

With the rise of the Endarkenment on the scene of Western Civilization the motif of the Reformation in Europe was turned aside and reversed in favor of the subjectivism of which Bavinck speaks. The Reformation had championed the authority of God as centered in the Scriptures and had moved away from the subjectivism of the Renaissance. The Reformation had removed the autonomy of fallen man as exhibited in the Roman Catholic Magisterium, wherein fallen man was given authority over the Scripture and had returned to the objective authority of Scripture Alone. The Reformation had returned the Church — and consequently Western Civilization — to a time of “authority and objectivity.”

With the rise of the philosophy and theology that drove the Endarkenment individual man was given autonomy to ascend to the most high so becoming his own authority and so his own objective. The subjective (fallen man) had become his own objective. The subjective had been objectivized but this objectification could never change the reality that at its core the objective remained subjective.

The two worlds — the world created by the Reformation and the world created by the Renaissance and later institutionalized by the Endarkenment could never really communicate with one another in any substantive manner. These two movements created two different worlds with two different languages, creating two different kinds of men. Subjective man who takes himself as his own objective can never understand man who stands on an authority that is outside and beyond himself. And so it remains today. There remains a small remnant of people who still believe in an objectively objective world wherein the authority of God’s Word remains the North Star for fallen man. This small remnant lives, cheek by jowl, with the majority of people — both inside and outside the church — who live with themselves as their own objective authority and standard. They can communicate with one another the way that a porcupine might communicate with a Weather Balloon. Ontologically they have all things in common but epistemologically they have nothing in common. They are living in two competing realities. This explains why Bavinck can write; “We can project ourselves into the thought and life of those preceding ages only with great difficulty.” Those of us who belong still to those preceding ages continue to have great difficulty but our great difficulty is projecting ourselves into the thought and life of the current age we now live in.

That Bavinck is correct here one only has to lift one’s eyes and look around. To the person who is conversant with the mindset of the preceding ages, having immersed themselves in those preceding ages via their reading habits, it is a daily reality that we have broke with what was once considered “sacred.” Whether it is the way we speak, the way we dress, or the way we worship as “Christians” all of what was once considered “sacred” is passe. In order for the idea of “sacred” to gain traction there must exist this concept of objective authority but with the disappearance of an objective authority so also has gone into remission any idea of “sacred.” If man is the measure than nothing can be set apart as unto God.

One of the pieces of irony in all this is the rise of “critical reason.” The irony is found in the fact that once the idea of authority and the objective is removed the idea that critical reason can still exist in a completely subjectivized and subjective world is a real knee-slapper. Without an authority or objective outside of us “critical reason” has no basis by which it can defend itself as either “critical” or as “reason.” Without authority to anchor it critical reason is just another subjective opinion. Indeed, “critical reason,” must presuppose what it is denying (objectivity and authority) in order to deny what it is denying. Before it can slap objectivity and authority in the face it must first climb up into its lap. Without objectivity and authority critical reason can be neither critical nor reason.

Do not move on from this quote without considering Bavinck’s final words here. In such an age as which we now live he notes that even most of the remaining Christians are in trouble. The remaining Christians, bitten by the zeitgeist, themselves have trouble returning to any real foundation. They exist as trying to return to a time, via a method (conservatism) which itself has very little eternal substance to it. They are seeking to “keep the faith,” but as Bavinck notes that faith has been planted in very shallow soil. Indeed, Bavinck’s words ring true again in thunderous tones for our day as he concludes; There is much noise and movement, but little genuine spirit, little genuine enthusiasm issuing from an upright, fervent, sincere faith.”

Answering An Objection To Presuppositionalism Raised By A Natural Law Fanboy

 “It’s (presuppositionalism) epistemological brain rot. They (Presuppositionalists) assume a coherence theory of knowledge, which redefines and subjectivizes knowledge, grounding it in your own “worldview” consistency rather than the objective world.

I once asked a staunch presup guy if an unregenerate person can understand the number 4. The response I got: “The unbeliever can’t A C C O U N T for the number four or understand why it is meaningful”. And it does quickly turn into arrogance on the popular level, spraying genetic fallacies in every direction.”

Natural Law Fanboy

1.) Inasmuch as one’s worldview is consistent with and reflective of the objective world I don’t see how this is a problem. Is it the case that our Natural Law Fanboy (NLF) believes that an objective world can be arrived at by beginning with the subjective categories of the fallen self as the epistemological legislating authority?

2.) It is only the Christian presuppositionalist who can have an objective world since the Christian presuppositionalist presupposes that an objective God has created an objective world and made it knowable by an objective revelatory word. The objectiveness of the world can only be obtained as in a presuppositionalist world and life view since only the presuppositionalist is beginning the reasoning process by presupposing an objective God who created an objective world that can be known by objective revelation.

3.) If our unregenerate person in question is a materialist he certainly can’t understand the number 4 since the number 4 is not a material reality. Now, he may well use fourness in any number of ways but his avowed worldview of materialism means that he indeed can’t account for the number 4 that he uses with regularity. If our unregenerate person in question is a spiritualist (believing that all reality is spiritual) then the number 4 is a spiritual reality but then so are the numbers 5 – 9 and every other number and as all is spiritual then any distinctions between any of the numbers is completely arbitrary on the part of our New Age friend.

So, “no,” the unregenerate person cannot “understand the number 4,” though we are glad to concede that the unregenerate person seldom acts consistently with his unregenerate Natural Law world and life view. Because the unbeliever acts inconsistently with his self-avowed world and life view you can find him everywhere fouring and fiving all over the place.

Of course it is Greg Bahnsen himself who said that the unregenerate can indeed count but he cannot account for his ability to count. Bahnsen was correct and I should think that folks dealing with Bahnsen seldom got away with accusing Bahnsen of “spraying genetic fallacies in every direction.”

Of course it is the view of the presuppositionalist that it is the Natural Law types who are the arrogant ones. Here we find folks who are championing the idea that starting from their subjective selves and their fallen minds they can arrive at the objective. But fallen man is like a zero in a multiplication problem. No matter how many other numbers one puts in the equation that 0 is going to make the answer 0.

The fact that fallen man gets right whatever it is he gets right is not explained by fallen man’s native epistemological ability. No, fallen man gets right what he gets right because he surreptitiously borrows from the Christian world and life view in order to get his Christ denying world and life view off the ground and operating.

It reminds us of the old joke Van Til used to enjoy telling.

One day a bunch of scientists came to God and said; “God, we have decided we don’t need you anymore. We have arrived to the point where we can create life and we are now quite done with any need of your services.”

God looked upon them amusingly and said … “Very well then, let us have a contest. You create life and then I’ll create life.”

This was amenable to the Natural Law scientists and so they agreed.

At that point they grabbed some dirt in order to create life whereupon God objected saying… “Oh no you don’t. That is my dirt. You get your own dirt.”

Natural Law fallen man may indeed get things “right” but they only do so by using borrowed capital from a Christian world and life view.

Whose brain is rotting now I wonder?