McAtee & Bordow (yet another WSC graduate)

Bret, can you give some examples of how theonomists are suffering today?

Is it not suffering enough to see God’s Word cast aside so that in 35 years we have suffered through a holocaust almost equal to the 50 Million that Stalin exterminated in Russia? Is it not suffering enough for the person who loves the Glory of God and His Christ to see His Glory diminished in the public square? Is it not suffering of one kind to have to live with the opprobrium, ridicule and calumny heaped up upon the theonomist by both God haters and those who say they love God? How many theonomists have not been ordained because of their convictions? How many theonomist have not been given plumb positions at Christian Educational establishments because of their convictions? (Bahnsen at Westminster East comes immediately to mind)

But if your question implies that none of them are locked up in prisons (yet) I would be glad to concede that. But then suffering comes in all shapes and sizes and in varying degrees doesn’t it Todd?

“The early church, good 2k folk :-), suffered, not because they were challenging and criticizing Caesar’s unrighteous rule, but that they refused to worship him as a god. Given that choice I would hope all true Christians, whether theonomic or 2k, would suffer instead of worship Caesar.”

Part of the problem with R2Kt people, in my estimation, is that they don’t really understand what idolatry is. They seem to think that if they can avoid bowing down to a flag then they are innocent of idolatry. However, I would contend that Christians do worship Caeser as God when they send their little children to government schools. Other examples could be elucidated. So, with that expanded definition of idolatry it becomes an open question of whether or not Christians would rather suffer instead of worshiping Caesar.

Stuart Robinson suffered under Lincoln exactly because he was 2k, and even the Southern Presbyterians were suspicious of him.

Don’t know much about him. You’ll have to fill me in. Still, quite apart from the particulars I understand how Tyrants could be threatened by R2Kt types. I have read stories of the time during the war of Northern Aggression where Pastors refused the orders of the occupying Union Army to pray for the President upon 2k type principles and they were run out of town.

“The true churches under Hitler were persecuted because they would not use the pulpit to throw their support behind Hitler’s policies. Thus both 2kers and more theonomist types were persecuted. The charge that only theonomists would suffer under such regimes is unfounded.”

I never denied that R2Kt types would eventually be persecuted. I quite admit that in a dualistic system such as R2Kt that the realm of nature committed to anti-Christ principles will eventually swallow whole the common realm and then will turn on the realm of grace. At that point, persecution will come. My point was that theonomy, quite to the contrary of Hart’s assertion, does know persecution and that even more so then R2Kt types since theonomist are willing to tackle the beast before it begins to swallow the Church.

“Now, there is a sense that many theonomists will suffer before 2kers, but I would argue that this is because they lack respect for the governing authorities. Again, go to Acts 25 & 26 and see how respectfully Paul addressed his civil authorities, and remember, these were atrocious leaders. And then go to Daniel’s blog and see his headline ‘Barak Obama is a Nazi.'”

Naturally, Todd, I would disagree with the first sentences, unless you would like to add that because of their respect for the Lord Christ the governing authorities see them as lacking respect.

Also while reading Acts 25, 26 we should read Acts 16 where we find the Apostle speaking a bit more directly to magistrates. Also we have our Lord Jesus calling Herod a “Fox” which was quite a strong appellation in that culture and at that time. Finally, there is the inspired language of John the Revelator which is also quite forceful. So, I would say Scripture is a mixed bag on that score.

And, I would say that Barack Obama is more of a fabian socialist then a Nazi. So, Daniel’s error was in placing in the wrong category of Socialist. Hardly something to get worked up about.

“Now can you imagine the Apostle Paul speaking like this about Agrippa or Festus? While Daniel would consider these statements bold and prophetic, I would say they violate the clear teaching of I Pet 1:13-17. So yes, in one sense the theonomists will suffer more, but that isn’t always a good thing.”

Yes, and I imagine that if had been alive during the time of Elijah on Mt. Carmel you would have tried to take him aside when he was mocking, in very jagged language, the priest of Baal.

Author: jetbrane

I am a Pastor of a small Church in Mid-Michigan who delights in my family, my congregation and my calling. I am postmillennial in my eschatology. Paedo-Calvinist Covenantal in my Christianity Reformed in my Soteriology Presuppositional in my apologetics Familialist in my family theology Agrarian in my regional community social order belief Christianity creates culture and so Christendom in my national social order belief Mythic-Poetic / Grammatical Historical in my Hermeneutic Pre-modern, Medieval, & Feudal before Enlightenment, modernity, & postmodern Reconstructionist / Theonomic in my Worldview One part paleo-conservative / one part micro Libertarian in my politics Systematic and Biblical theology need one another but Systematics has pride of place Some of my favorite authors, Augustine, Turretin, Calvin, Tolkien, Chesterton, Nock, Tozer, Dabney, Bavinck, Wodehouse, Rushdoony, Bahnsen, Schaeffer, C. Van Til, H. Van Til, G. H. Clark, C. Dawson, H. Berman, R. Nash, C. G. Singer, R. Kipling, G. North, J. Edwards, S. Foote, F. Hayek, O. Guiness, J. Witte, M. Rothbard, Clyde Wilson, Mencken, Lasch, Postman, Gatto, T. Boston, Thomas Brooks, Terry Brooks, C. Hodge, J. Calhoun, Llyod-Jones, T. Sowell, A. McClaren, M. Muggeridge, C. F. H. Henry, F. Swarz, M. Henry, G. Marten, P. Schaff, T. S. Elliott, K. Van Hoozer, K. Gentry, etc. My passion is to write in such a way that the Lord Christ might be pleased. It is my hope that people will be challenged to reconsider what are considered the givens of the current culture. Your biggest help to me dear reader will be to often remind me that God is Sovereign and that all that is, is because it pleases him. View all posts by jetbrane