One of the people I serve in Christ’s congregation sent me this link below as it was sent to them by one of their “liberal friends.” The young lady who sent it to me said she was “interested in my thoughts.”
So here are my thoughts.
Sodomite Supporter (SS) says,
“My hope here is to find common ground with those who have disagreed with me on the issue, and maybe to persuade. It’s not to ridicule or to best.”
Bret responds,
Remember one of our motifs as Christians is that all ground is common ground though no ground is neutral ground. We have common ground with all people because all of this world is God’s world and no Christ-hater can escape God’s ground. However, as we shall see, there is no neutral ground where we can stand together. Especially in a worldview clash, such as the whole Chick-Fil-A (CFA) imbroglio where it has been revealed there is no ground where the adversaries can find mutual footing.
Secondly, the writer is being ingenuousness when he says he is not trying to “best,” with this article. Of course he is trying to best. He is seeking to carry the day with his apologetic.
SS
“So, in the interest of common ground, let’s start here: I acknowledge the absurdity of all this debate.
It’s definitely strange to have days-long Facebook debates flare up everywhere over a chicken sandwich. The anger, sarcasm, and hurt feelings on display seem strange or even laughable because most people have seen Chick-Fil-A as just a restaurant with a funny ad campaign. I’ll get into some of the whys and wherefores of that later. But, for now, let’s just say that, yes. It can seem ridiculous to get all worked up over fast-food chicken.”
But of course the debate is not absurd and it is definitely not about fast-food chicken. The CEO of CFA could have been selling chalk, or yachts, or hairpins and this issue would have been with us. It is hard to believe this person really believes this debate is flaring up over a chicken sandwich.
SS
“Let’s also agree that this isn’t about curtailing anyone’s rights under First Amendment. The Constitution is a legal document. This is not a legal argument. No one is arguing that Chik-fil-A CEO Dan Cathy should be put in prison, or silenced, or censored by the government. This has nothing to do with government censorship or government abridgment of Freedom of Speech. So don’t worry: the ability of this millionaire to legally spend his millions as he sees fit is not in jeopardy. You need not defend it.”
Bret
Actually this is, in part, precisely about 1st amendment rights. Now, the LGBT crowd has not yet mustered the strength to constitutionally silence people, however, the reason the LGBT crowd has gone after CFA is that it is giving millions of dollars to organizations who oppose their agenda. If they can silence CFA by restricting their growth through closing cities like Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, etc. from CFA they can financially wound CFA and thus send a message to other businesses that might themselves oppose the LGBT agenda that speaking out against the LGBT agenda will destroy your company. As such, while this is not about Dejure 1st amendment rights this is about defacto 1st amendment rights. CFA is being told in essence, “if you support those who oppose you we are going to silence you by shutting you down. If successful, the LGBT agenda also achieves the ability to reinforce PC speech. If successful by seeking to shut down CFA the LGBT agenda would be extended by everyone realizing that speaking out against sodomy is not socially acceptable and can end in personal or economic ruination.
People need to realize how powerful this LGBT agenda has become. They are using their propaganda in the government schools to socially engineer children. They are well ensconced in many of the Church denominations. They are politically well connected as can be seen in their ability to turn the US military into their bacchanalia playground. The attempt is to mainstream social deviance and to make anybody who speaks out against this deviance to be seen as the deviant.
SS
Now, let’s get to the nitty-gritty of things. Please read carefully. These things have been said before, but not by me, and not all in one place. Please read with an open mind. If you can’t read with an open mind, please leave, take a minute, come back, and try again. If you can’t do that, then please don’t bother. Please read all of the words here, rather than just reading half of the argument and assuming you know what I’m saying. Read these words as they are written. Again, if you don’t want to read my words, then don’t continue.
Bret
And of course, reading with “an open mind” here means, “read in such a way that you will agree with me.”
So here goes:
1. “This isn’t simply about marriage. Shocker, right? It’s extremely frustrating that same-sex marriage is the great continental divide. People are judged according to how they stand on this issue, as if no other issue matters. Did you know that a person can be for same-sex marriage and still be homophobic? Did you know that a person can be against same-sex marriage and be gay? We all get categorized very quickly based on the marriage issue and maybe that’s not fair. But here’s what you should know:”
Bret
Other issues do matter but the LGBT crowd are the ones who are trying to force this down our collective craw and so it should not be a surprise that this has become the issue it has. If someone is, at every turn, seeking to mainstream deviancy then they should not be surprised that at every turn resistance to that project is what they see. It is the LGBT crowd who are responsible for creating a climate where people act as if no other issue matters because for them it is the only issue that matters.
The other issues he brings up in terms of how different people can believe differently is irrelevant. It is just smoke to obfuscate the issue at hand.
SS
– In 29 states in America today, my partner of 18 years, Cody, or I could be fired for being gay. Period. No questions asked. One of those states is Louisiana, our home state. We live in self-imposed exile from beloved homeland, family, and friends, in part, because of this legal restriction on our ability to live our lives together.
Bret responds
So? So what? Sodomites have chosen their paths. The states also have laws against bestiality and necrophilia and pedophilia. Are we to feel sorry for those deviants all because the laws of the states against that criminal behavior inconveniences said perverts? Sodomy is a criminal behavior. Period. Why should we feel sorry for criminals who are inconvenienced by their criminal behavior being outlawed? The only reason this kind of plea for sympathy works is because people no longer understand sodomy to be a mental illness — something that it was designated as by the American Psychiatric Association until 1973.
Understand that the law in those 29 states is what it is, in part, because that law retains the vestiges of an older law order that was more intimately related to Christianity and so understood the destructive power of sodomy to a well functioning social order. Those laws that are being protested by this writer were put in place in order to protect the family unit because the legislators who passed those laws understood, on some level, that if sodomy were allowed to flourish that would mean the shriveling up of a healthy social order. Sodomy was understood to be a contagion that if allowed to prosper would be a plague upon the whole social order, upon families, and upon children.
And that is precisely what has happened as that contagion has been allowed to spread.
SS
– “In 75 countries in the world, being gay is illegal. In many, the penalty is life in prison. These are countries we can’t openly visit. In 9 countries, being gay is punishable by death. In many others, violence against gays is tacitly accepted by the authorities. These are countries where we would be killed. Killed.”
Bret,
And likewise Scripture called for the death penalty for sodomites.
In my world serial adultery would be illegal and serial adulterers would be penalized with prison. Serial adulterers should have countries they can’t openly visit. All that to say, I don’t think criminalizing sodomy is something that is criminal or is a reality that an enlightened person would or should be put off by. However, because our culture has been so propagandized by the LGBT spin this kind of “feel sorry for me” argument offered above gets traction with people who have more sentimentalism than they do wisdom.
We don’t allow necrophilia. We don’t allow pedophilia (witness Jerry Sandusky). We don’t allow Bestiality. Why should we allow sodomy to flourish in our country? They are all equally deviant.
SS writes,
– “Two organizations that work very hard to maintain this status quo and roll back any protections that we may have are the Family Research Council and the Marriage & Family Foundation. For example, the Family Research council leadership has officially stated that same-gender-loving behavior should be criminalized in this country. They draw their pay, in part, from the donations of companies like Chick-Fil-A. Both groups have also done “missionary” work abroad that served to strengthen and promote criminalization of same-sex relations.
– Chick-Fil-A has given roughly $5M to these organizations to support their work.
– Chick-Fil-A’s money comes from the profits they make when you purchase their products.”
Bret responds,
And here you see why CFA must be shut down. CFA must be shut down because they have a different standard of ethics than the LGBT crowd has. CFA looks to Scripture for a plumb-line on this issue to determine right and wrong while the LGBT crowd looks to their own perverted autonomous libido to determine right from wrong.
SS,
2. “This isn’t about mutual tolerance because there’s nothing mutual about it. If we agree to disagree on this issue, you walk away a full member of this society and I don’t. There is no “live and let live” on this issue because Dan Cathy is spending millions to very specifically NOT let me live. I’m not trying to do that to him.
Bret,
I don’t tolerate criminal perverted behavior, and I don’t expect the person who has embraced criminal and perverted behavior to tolerate those who recognize and point out their criminal and perverted behavior. In short, I don’t want mutual tolerance. I want to see perversion stuffed back into the closet. I want to go back to the time when sodomy was “the love that dare not speak it’s name,” as opposed to the current times when sodomy “won’t shut the hell up.”
SS
“Asking for “mutual tolerance” on this like running up to a bully beating a kid to death on the playground and scolding them both for not getting along. I’m not trying to dissolve Mr. Cathy’s marriage or make his sex illegal. I’m not trying to make him a second-class citizen, or get him killed. He’s doing that to me, folks; I’m just fighting back.
All your life, you’re told to stand up to bullies, but when WE do it, we’re told WE are the ones being intolerant? Well, okay. Yes. I refuse to tolerate getting my ass kicked. “Guilty as charged.”
But what are you guilty of? When you see a bully beating up a smaller kid and you don’t take a side, then you ARE taking a side. You’re siding with the bully. And when you cheer him on, you’re revealing something about your own character that really is a shame.
Bret,
Actually, the LGBT crowd is trying to dissolve Mr. Cathy’s marriage, and all marriages, as they seek to redefine what marriage is. If marriage can mean everything than it means nothing.
However SS is right in that this is not an issue where mutual tolerance can work. The LGBT crowd has made that clear in their attack on heterosexuality in the Government schools. I believe this culture cannot endure, permanently, half sodomite and half heterosexual. This is, as we are increasingly seeing, a irrepressible conflict.
And let us be clear here that it is the criminal perverted sodomites who are the bully in this scenario. Is someone a bully who is merely seeking to defend a non perverted social order? Is someone a bully who seeks to protect and defend his children and family from the sick twisted mindset that drives said sexual perversion?
SS
3. “This isn’t about Jesus. I have a lot of Christian friends. Most of them are of the liberal variety, it’s true, but even this concept seems lost on some of you. Most of them are pro-LGBT rights. Pro-gay and Pro-Christ are NOT mutually exclusive. They never have been, in the history of Christianity, though it’s been difficult at times. It’s not impossible to be both.
If someone is telling you it is, then maybe you should wonder why they’d do that. I see divorced Christians, remarried Christians, drug addict Christians. I see people with WWJD bracelets bumping and grinding on TV and raking in millions to do it. I see greedy, rapacious, vengeful people who are Christians. And these people are accepted in the Church, and the Church does very little to combat them. Sometimes it seems like being gay is the ONLY thing certain modern Christian movements won’t allow. Why’s that, I wonder?
Jesus had almost nothing to say about sexual behavior of any kind. He was too busy teaching more important things. Empathy is at the heart of his teachings. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Remember that? It’s in red. So let’s examine that:
Bret responds,
A.) It is about Jesus. Scripture clearly teaches that sodomy is vile and heinous sin. Granted, so is serial adultery and pride, and cowardice, and sloth, and unbelief and many other peccadilloes, but we are left constantly talking about sodomy precisely because sodomy has become so well organized in its attack on Biblical Christianity and Jesus.
It is about Jesus. Pro-gay, Pro-LGBT rights and pro Jesus are definitely mutually exclusive. Anybody who states anything to the contrary is serving a Jesus cast in their own image and not the Jesus that who has made His mind known in Scripture. It is impossible to be both pro Jesus Christ and pro sodomy.
B.) The reason why the Church has to spend so much time combating buggery is because buggery has become so efficiently organized to advance its cause and has been so successful in its agenda. If there were powerful organizations that taught that pride was pleasing to God and was a positive good, or that lying was pleasing to God and was a positive good, or that adultery was pleasing to God and was a positive good then the Church would have to repeatedly return to castigate such insane, abysmal and non Christian positions.
C.) The fact that there are so many Christians that fail to live up to what they are called to live up to does not give license to the Church to go silent about the sin of sodomy. The fact that the Church wrongly accepts some people’s vile behavior doesn’t mean that it should accept all people’s vile behavior. The failure here isn’t in condemning sodomy. The failure here is in not condemning the other sins that our resident sodomite author lists. It is not unfair that sodomy is singled out as sin simply because it is sin. What is unfair is that the other listed sins are not pointed out. If I get a speeding ticket for going 20 mph over the speed limit while everyone else around me is going 30 mph over the speed limit it is not unfair that I was issued a ticket. I got what I deserved. Just so, even though there are numerous other sins allegedly going on in the Church un=addressed it does not make it unfair if sodomy alone is addressed because sodomy deserves to be addressed even if the other sins wrongly are not addressed.
D.) Jesus did speak to the issue of sexuality with the woman at the well issue in John 4 and with the woman caught in adultery in John 8. In both cases He said or implied it was sin.
E.) Those who oppose sodomy are being empathetic. They are being empathetic towards those who are going to be caught up in the sodomy lifestyle because sodomy is not being opposed. They are being empathetic towards God who has made His mind about sodomy known. Finally, they are being empathetic towards the sodomite because there is no love in turning a blind eye to someone created in the image of God as they destroy themselves.
SS
4. “If things were reversed, I’d stand up for you.
Please think about this: How would you feel if KFC came out tomorrow and said they were spending money against equality for Asian Americans, or African Americans, or religious people? Really. Think about it. What would you do? How would you feel? How would you feel if, after their announcement, there was a big increase in KFC sales and I was all over Facebook supporting KFC. Please stop reading right now and imagine this. I’m serious.
You can stop now because it’s ludicrous. It would never happen.
Oh, I don’t mean the part about KFC being against some group. That COULD happen. I mean the part about me supporting them. Let me tell you something, and you can damn well believe it: I’d sign on for the boycott IMMEDIATELY.
Why? Well, because I believe in equality for all people, that’s why. But also, personally, from the bottom of my heart: because you are my friend, and I don’t willingly support people who harm you for just being you. How could I? How could I, really? But, more importantly for our purposes, how could you?”
Bret responds
A.) Sodomy is not the same as being Asian, African, etc. Scripture nowhere claims that being of a set people group is criminal or perverted. It does point out that sodomy is criminal, perverted, and sin. So, the examples don’t wash.
B.) It is not possible to be against religious people, since by definition all people are religious.
C.) Of course I would be outraged if people were trying to stamp out Christianity just as Christianity is trying to stamp out sodomy. I don’t expect sodomites to not be outraged because they are rightfully being opposed by Christians, and I don’t expect sodomites to not act all wounded and hurt while invoking silly arguments about the roles being reversed.
D.) And we oppose you and support CFA because we love you. I know you can’t see that. I know that it all looks like hate to you given your worldview but if we were to allow you and yours, along with your belief system to conquer then we would sanction your own personal self destruction as well as the destruction of countless other people who will be caught up in your successful attempt to homosexualize this culture. You need help. I know you don’t see that and can’t admit it but the fact is that you need help. Only the forgiveness found in Jesus Christ can deliver you from the unrelieved guilt you are carrying that is driving your behavior. However, you must first admit what you already know and that is your behavior is sin and rebellion against your Creator. If you will admit your sin and repent you can be confident that you will be received by the Christ of the Bible as one who is weary and heavy laden. He will accept you. He will receive you. He will own you as one of His own. But if you will not surrender there is nothing but the promise of fearful judgment being stored up against you.
E.) I don’t believe in equality for all people. I don’t believe in equality for the mass murderer. I don’t believe in equality for the pedophile (Jerry Sandusky) and I don’t believe in equality for those who practice the crime of sodomy.
SS,
Seriously, how could you? What has Chick-Fil-A ever done for you? Sold you some fatty chicken at a ridiculous mark-up? Made you chuckle at semi-literate cartoon cows? You mean more to me than KFC possibly could. If I, in turn, don’t mean more to you than a chicken sandwich from Chik-Fil-A–if my life, my quality of life, and my dignity are such afterthoughts to you that you’d not only refuse the boycott, but go out of your way to support someone who was hurting me? if I let this stand, if I don’t stand up to the bullies and if I let my friends egg the bullies on, what does that make me?
Well, it makes me a Chikin.
Yeah, so suddenly it is cause for anger, ridiculous or not.”
Bret responds,
It is not about a fast food restaurant meaning more to me than you. It is about God’s glory meaning more to me than you. It is about your restoration meaning more to me than your self inflicted destruction. It is about unknown to me children meaning more to me than you — children who are likely to be caught up in your destructive lifestyle all because I was bullied into keeping silent. I will not be bullied and I will not be silent. Your lifestyle is sin and God commands you to repent and I would be unfaithful to Him and you if I just turned a blind eye to the attempt of the LGBT crowd to push God out to the corners of the reality.
SS writes,
“But I’m not going to stop being Facebook friends with anyone over this issue.
Instead, I will remain. And, when you see my face with my partner’s in my profile, maybe you will examine not simply what your opinions are about gay people, or gay marriage, or the first amendment, even; maybe you’ll examine not merely your opinions but your values. What is friendship to you? What is loyalty? How important are human life and dignity to you? Are they more important than fitting in with your social group? Are they more important than loyalty to a corporate brand, or a political party, or some misguided church teaching?
Bret,
It is precisely my values that drives me in all this. Scripture teaches me that “Friendship with the world is enmity towards God,” and right now friendship with you, apart from laying out your abomination, would be enmity (hatred) towards God. What is loyalty you ask. Loyalty is standing for the Creator God’s cause despite your hatred and the world’s hatred for me. I owe Him by loyalty, not you. And you ask about human life and dignity. Well, only God can give life and dignity meaning and your sodomite behavior strips you of the dignity you could have if you would only leave your sin, and in terms of life, well, it is your life that I am pleading for in writing this.
And the Church teaching is only misguided to you because it does not support your perversion.
SS writes,
“That’s why we’re so angry. This is personal for us. There are times in your life when you have the opportunity to stand up for your friends. When you let that opportunity pass, your friends notice. It doesn’t mean we can’t be friends, but it diminishes you, and it diminishes the friendship. That’s how it is, no matter what the issue or what the venue.
So stand up. Stand up for us. Do the right thing. You don’t have to agree with us on everything, but repudiate Chick-Fil-A. Unlike them on Facebook. Withdraw your support for them. Join us in the boycott. If you can’t do that, then please ask yourself whether I’m your friend. In fact, ask yourself whether anyone is.”
Bret responds,
It is more than personal for us. It is about God’s glory, your soul, and the well being of countless others if your belief system and behavior is left unchallenged. The Love of Christ compels us to lift up God’s standard and to oppose you.