An Exchange On Natural Law With Evan Gerber

Evan Gerber wrote,

McAtee Bret It’s not just opinions though—there is, objectively, content in natural revelation, with moral implications, over which we disagree.

Bret responds,

True … but the unbeliever is suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and so to suggest that he can enter in the discussion about the moral implications of objective NL is just contrary to Scripture. Scripture teaches in Rmns. 8:7 that the carnal mind is at enmity to God’s law. It cannot submit.

So, it is just opinions for the fallen man. To deny that is to deny total depravity. And for the Christian it is just an exchange of opinions on what NL is objectively teaching since there is no “thus saith the Lord in NL.” In order to read Natural Revelation aright one must first presuppose Special Revelation.

EG wrote,

I think this is obvious even from the comprehensibility of Scripture itself. Without natural revelation, Scripture we would be unable to comprehend Scripture. Further, without tradition—because that is what all language is—we would have no way access the Truth of Scripture.

BLM replies,

Our comprehending Scripture as God intends is dependent upon reading it via the proper presuppositions. After all, the JW’s read Scripture and still get it wrong. So… while we must be able to read to understand Scripture reading doesn’t guarantee that we will understand Scripture. So, even the reading of Scripture depends upon proper presuppositions which can only be given by God in regeneration. Special Revelation still precedes General Revelation.

Indeed, even the “we” doing the reading cannot know who we are without presupposing God. So, whether it is the reader or the one doing the reading any progress is dependent upon having God centered presuppositions.

EG writes,

In order to argue against NL, I think you have to affirm *just* enough natural revelation to make Scripture comprehensible, but somehow make a distinction between what is necessary to understand Scripture and all other natural revelation. I just don’t believe this distinction is warranted.

Bret responds,

See above. I think it is warranted. You have not yet plumped the depths of the fall.

EG writes,

[Side note: If this is just a semantic disagreement over the term “Natural Law,” I’m happy to use “Natural Revelation” instead. I am not contending that NL exists “independent” of God, nor is that my understanding from reading Aquinas.]

BLM responds,

Aquinas teaches that fallen man can read NL aright since in Thomism man’s intellect is not completely fallen.

Might I recommend that you read Francis Schaeffer’s “Escape From Reason?”

An Exchange On Natural Law With Cody Justice

Cody Justice wrote,

If there is no natural law, no one dispossessed of Scripture can know right from wrong, nor can they be justly judged by God. But those dispossessed of Scripture do know right from wrong and are justly judged by God. Ergo etc.

BLMc responds

1.) Yes, they can know right from wrong since the Scripture clearly teaches that fallen man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. I have never denied Natural Law exists. I have and do deny that NL can be used as a ordering mechanism for social order since fallen man as suppressing the truth in unrighteousness refuses to operate in terms of what he can’t help knowing to be true. So, I believe that God is sending NL but that fallen man, being a Christ hater, refuses to read it for what it is except when it serves his sinful necessity.

In Bahnsen’s words, the unbeliever knows and doesn’t know at the same time.

2.) Enforcing this is the Scripture that explicitly teaches that the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (Romans 8:7).
This vs. alone immediately rules out all Thomistic NL theories.

3.) Even if the above were not true, man is responsible to God if only because God says “man is responsible to me.”

CJ wrote,

QED (for the thousandth time). Also: Drew is a goober for appealing to NL for egalitarianism just as much as Wilson is a goober for appealing to theonomy for legalizing pornography.

1.) If I was forced to embrace NL it would be of your flavor.

2.) However since Thomistic NL is a myth I can advocate for a better way.

3.) Wilson is not a theonomist. He has written that his goal is to be 0.5 of what RJR was. Wilson is a Libertarian. He’s also an idiot though he is a master marketer, propagandist, and has never met a false dichotomy he wasn’t intimate with.

4.) BUT…we do agree that Drewski is a “Goober.”

Dawson & McAtee On The One & The Many & The Loss of Meaning

“The Western mind has turned away from the contemplation of the absolute and the eternal to the knowledge of the particular and the contingent. It has made man the measure of all things and has sought to emancipate human life from its dependence on the supernatural. Instead of the whole intellectual and social order being subordinated to spiritual principles, every practice has declared its independence, and we see politics, economics, science and art organizing themselves as autonomous kingdoms which owe no allegiance to any higher power.

And these tendencies were not confined to the secular side of life; they made themselves felt in religion also. Religion came to be regarded as one among a competing number of interests of life, which had no jurisdiction over the rest. And as it lost its universal authority, it lost it’s universal vision; it became sectionalized and rationalized with the rest of European life. The ancient unity of Christendom fell asunder into a mass of warring sects, which were so absorbed in their internecine feuds that they were hardly conscious of their loss of spiritual vision and social authority.”

Christopher Dawson
Christianity & The New Age – p. 59
Published 1931

1.) When Dawson notes that the Western mind is preoccupied with the particular and contingent over and against the universal and eternal he points out a huge problem. The Western mind preferring the particular and contingent over the universal and eternal is like someone stumbling upon a 5000 piece jigsaw puzzle scattered all over a house with no box top in order to know what the various pieces are supposed to construct. One cannot know particulars without knowing the universal. Neither can one know the universal without knowing the particulars. Only Christianity can answer this with its teaching of God being both One and Many (Trinitarian) so that the One and the Many condition one another (the doctrine of perichoresis). This idea of the One and Many is both eternal and temporal. Because God is eternally one and many the temporal order is likewise it be understood as one and many. However, if the God of the Bible is not presupposed then modern man has an epistemological problem as the temporal one and many (universals and particulars) have no way of coming into a proper relationship with one another. When the Western mind gave up, as Dawson notes, its dependence on knowing the particular and contingent by knowing the universal and eternal the Western mind gave up knowing. Now, it took time for that agnosticism of knowing to reach full bloom but philosophically the rise of Nihilism, Existentialism, Post-modernism, and post-post Modernism all have been expressions and outcomes of what Dawson was seeing already in 1931. Indeed, Existentialism was in its heyday in the 1930s.

2.) When Dawson notes that “politics, economics, science and art organizing themselves as autonomous kingdoms which owe no allegiance to any higher power,” we find the foundation of why our University system is no longer worthy of the name “University.” When began, the University (as the word indicates) insisted that there was a unity that could make sense of the diverse disciplines one could find at University. Modern man has abandoned the God of the Bible and His revelation as being that which gives unity to a diversity of knowledge. Because of that abandonment Western man has become schizoid man – he has no unity. Because there is no longer a unifying field of knowledge (i.e.- Theology) If one goes to modern Universities one will find the different departments at each other’s throats. For example the Mathematical department and the Science departments are at war with one another over the issue of whether biological evolution is even possible.

However, even in the Church realm there is strong advocacy that matters like politics, economics, science, and art should organize themselves as autonomous kingdoms which owe no allegiance to any higher power. Dooyeweerd’s school for example insists that none of the various disciplines are dependent upon the common discipline. Likewise, Radical Two Kingdom theology insists that disciplines like those mentioned (politics, economics, etc.) should not even ever be considered “Christian.” They are their own realities that are absent one organizing unitary principle that gives them a stable transcendent unity. Indeed, R2K goes so far as to say that because there is no unitary principle that brings all disciplines under the God of the Bible’s authority that Christian ministers are wrong (in sin) to speak a “thus saith the Lord” in the realms of politics, economics, science, art, education, etc.

3.) In the mad rush to disenchant the world the results has been there is no longer any sacred authority to speak to all of life and all the parts of life. What the “conservative” “Christian” “faith” of the first part of the 21st century has done is to have emptied the world of God’s authority, and having emptied the world of God’s authority the world has become disenchanted and completely desacralized. By insisting that the Church alone is the realm of the sacred and the enchanted the modern Christian Church has created schizoid man — a man divided against himself. Dualistic man. Instead of speaking of the Church as the “holy of holies,” with everything else outside of the Church finding itself “holy” in light of the Church faithfully holding forth the Word of God over every area of life the Church now insists that it alone is Holy (sacred — realm of grace) while everything else is non-holy (unclean).

Of course, as the saying goes, nature hates a vacuum. Consequently, where the Church has abdicated its role in providing a unitary field of truth, other contestants have sought to provide that role. If the Church will not provide a unitary field of truth based on the theology that overflow from God’s Revelation then sex or science or meaninglessness, or currently, the push towards Artificial Intelligence and Transhumanist constructs, will seek to provide that unitary field of truth. Christians retreating from the idea that Christian theology is the Queen of the Sciences will find that other ugly bitch Queens will arise to steal the sceptre and rule in a vile way.

All of this explains why we are seeing such a departure from the conservative Church. The conservative Church has no answers for modern man. It is completely irrelevant and to be honest I don’t know who I feel more sorry for … for those who don’t attend or for those who do attend.

Thomism And Its Sacred vs. Secular Divide

We continue to deal with the problem, in our current setting, of people in the “conservative” “Reformed” “Churches” who desire to relativize the Scriptures by creating a hard sacred vs. secular divide. This has been most handily and readily captured by Dr. D. G. Hart’s constant blathering about the need to live the “hyphenated life.” By this, Dr. D. G. Hart means, that some of life is to be placed and lived in one container that is dualistically distinct from other portions of life that are placed in lived in a different container. These separate containers are called “sacred” and “secular.”

This mindset is being openly pursued again especially by the Thomists who seek to neatly divide life into a natural realm and a sacred realm. Dr. Stephen Wolfe is leading the way in this resurgence of classical Thomistic thought as among Reformed thought leaders. However, there are variants that exist today on this Thomistic schematic and the variants are so pronounced that the fellow travelers in the Thomistic thought world are often at each other’s throats.

There are two variants to the straight up Thomism that is practiced by Dr. Wolfe and his followers. The first is not seen as much though a recent publication by Willem Ouweneel, “The World Is Christ’s: A Critique of Two Kingdoms Theology,” was an example of the thought of Herman Dooyeweerd, a Dutch Theologian who lived from 1894-1977.  In Dooyeweerdian thought (Cosmonomic-ism) reality was dichotomized into variant modal spheres each having their own distinct laws. In such a manner theology proper remains a distinct discipline largely unrelated to other modal realms of reality (eg. Law, Politics, Art, Education, Sociology, etc.) which instead find their own trajectory as anchored in their own distinct modal beginning points. The second variant to straight up 100 proof Thomism is what is being offered by the Escondido Westminster West chaps. This has come to be known as Radical Two Kingdom theology (R2K). In R2K, the beginning inspiration, Meredith Kline, dichotomized and dispensationalized the canonical authority of Scripture by positing that both between and within the Old and New covenant discontinuity was to be presupposed when reading the whole text as opposed to continuity. In such a fashion sundry dichotomies were invented in order to sustain a theology that demanded Hart’s “Hyphenated life.”

Dr. Greg Bahnsen analyzed Kline’s “theology” in this manner;

“In the latter case (speaking of Kline’s offerings), the moral authority of certain elements of Scripture is arbitrarily dismissed on the basis of separating (without conceptual cogency or exegetical justification) faith-norms from life-norms, individual norms from communal norms, and ‘common grace’ principles from ‘eschatological intrusion’ principles – implying that the most explicit biblical directions about political ethics may not be utilized today.” 

Dr. Greg Bahnsen 
The Structure of Biblical Authority

In both Dooyeweerd and in Kline a variant of Thomistic thinking is applied that leaves men as being the autonomous and sovereign authority in determining standards and principles for all areas of life except for the portions of life designated as “sacred.”

It is humorous to see these different schools engaged in their intramural struggles over which variant of Thomism is going to be embraced. Ouweneel wrote his book against R2K and R2K is forever denouncing Dr. Stephen Wolfe and his straight up 100 proof Thomism. Wolfe vs. R2K is especially entertaining because they both and each appeal to the same Natural Law standard in order to prove that the other is in error over their respective uses of Natural Law.

Of course the non-Thomistic variant that wars against both Cosmonomic theology and Radical Two Kingdom theology is that Christianity that was embraced by the Reformers as seen in Scriptures, the Westminster Confession of Faith, and as seen in the Sermons by John Calvin from the book of Deuteronomy. This line of thought has been dubbed “Theonomy” or “Reconstructionism” but it would be better to just label it as “Historic Christianity.” Biblical Christians deny a hard sacred sacred vs. secular divide insisting to the contrary that all of life is Holy unto God while at the same time admitting that what might be called “the common things of life” are made holy when they are handled in terms of God’s authority and revelation.

The correction offered by Biblical Christianity to the antinomianism inherent in all forms of Thomism is that all things are to be regulated and legislated according to God’s Word. In every area of life the Christian is to say, “In thy light we see light (Ps. 36:9).” There is no area of life where God’s Word, rightly handled and understood, should not be brought to bear in order to inform and guide. In God’s light we see light not only for ecclesiastical matters, but also for family life, political order, educational ordering, jurisprudence and law, as well as every other area of life.

Biblical Christians understand that as long as we continue to refuse God’s explicit Word on morality — a morality that informs the making of laws by our legislators — the result will be what we are now seeing; “And each man did what was right in his own eyes.” There must be a standard and Biblical Christianity from Ælfred the Great’s “Doom Book,” to Calvin’s sermons on Deuteronomy, to the Westminster standards, to the early colonial government laws in Puritan New England, that standard has been God’s revelation in the Scriptures.

Now it must be conceded to Thomistic views that for centuries Natural Law theory held sway in the Church — both Rome and later the Reformed church. However, I contend that only worked because the Western Christianized populations and leadership were all already presupposing some form of a Christian world and life view. When one advocates for Thomistic Natural Law theories while dwelling among a people who presuppose Christianity then naturally enough Natural Law is going to teach Christian morality and ethics. However, after over a couple hundred years of Enlightenment thinking — an Enlightenment thinking that is itself now breaking down under its own presuppositions — we no longer live in a time where Natural Law can put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Natural Law will not provide a code wherein everyone will sign on. Enlightenment thinking has gone to seed producing early in the 2oth century Nihilism and Existentialism to now evolving in post-modernism and post-post modernism. The dialectical movement of the Enlightenment from mystical irrational apprehensions of reality (Romanticism, Kantianism, Existentialism, post-modernism) to rationalistic apprehensions of reality (Deism, Rationalism, Common Sense Realism) have demonstrated that only a return to an epistemology that is grounded on God’s revelation can fix what is broken about Western and formerly Christian man.

So, as Isaiah said long ago; “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.”

Muller & McAtee On The Necessity Of Revealed Theology

“The Protestant orthodox include virtually no natural theology in their systems and never view natural theology, human reason, or the light of nature as a foundation upon which revealed theology can build.”
 
Richard A. Muller

Historian and Reformed scholar
“Post-Reformation Reformed Dogmatics: The Rise and Development of Reformed Orthodoxy, ca. 1520 to ca. 1725.”

If revealed theology is the Queen of all Sciences — that is if revealed theology is the foundation for all other academic disciplines so that all other disciplines can not be successfully pursued without presupposing revealed theology — then it stands to reason that no discipline of man can be successfully pursued solely upon the basis of natural theology, human reason, or the light of nature as a foundation upon which area of knowledge can be built.

If fallen man can and does successfully suppress the truth in  unrighteousness than the truth that fallen man needs in order to build a functioning and stable social order is impossible. Now, he may be able to build a unstable social order that is marginally functional — much like we find in Sodom and Gomorrah or at the Tower of Babel — but for a social order to be stable and functional by a Biblical standard that social order must presuppose the God of the Bible and His revealed Word.

Those that deny this simple truth have to deny the noetic effects of the fall as well as the truth of total depravity. It is true that fallen man, as a collective, is not always as wicked as he could be but it is also true that fallen man, as a collective, builds fallen social orders. Where fallen man gets anything correct in those fallen social orders it is only due to the fact that he has borrowed capital from the Christian Weltanschauung that does not belong to him and, as a result, he has stumbled on to felicitous inconsistency as between what he is suppressing and what he has gotten correct in his social order. As Van Til used to put it, where fallen man gets something right it is only to the end of slapping God in the face upon climbing up into God’s lap.

If we have low views of the effects of the fall we will in turn have a non-Christian anthropology and non-Christian anthropologies, by necessity, will eventually yield non-Christian theologies. One can’t think highly of fallen man’s ability to build beautiful non-Christian cultures and think highly of God at the same time. What is the need of special grace if common grace can do so much?