Category: R2K Virus (Radical Two Kingdom Theology)

Recently I came across a well known Ph.D. bearing false witness against classical Reformed Theology. I thought I would take on his response here.

Below is the question that kicked off his response.

Question,

Just curious: how come no one would personally and publicly debate Greg Bahnsen on theonomy, if theonomy was so obviously wrong that any covenant child could refute?

Answer,

This is an interesting question for a couple of reasons. I see theonomy as a sort of analogue to the FV. Both movements reflect a similar pathology in the Reformed corpus. Both reflect what call the Quest for Illegitimate Religious Certainty.

First, far later in the answer this man admits that FV and theonomy are not synonyms. What he doesn’t mention is that it was a Theonomic denomination that first blew the whistle in official church courts on Federal vision. One must wonder that if a similar “pathology” exists why the Theonomists would bring the Federal Vision up on charges. What this man is trying to accomplish by innuendo is guilt by association.

Second, this man decries religious certainty, which would seem to mean that he doesn’t have religious certainty. I mean how can one fault the quest for religious certainty and embrace religious certainty for oneself? So the objection here is that people should not have the religious certainty that theonomists have. Presumably our objector is certain of that.

The FV is making the doctrine of justification a little more “reasonable,” by reducing the scandal of the cross and the offense of the gospel. As it turns out, we do have a small part in justification! That’s just a little more reasonable than the confessional Protestant alternative. Theonomy represents another side of the same quest. It offers a kind of ethical precision and a kind of ethical authority that reduces ambiguities to certainties and, on its premises, makes Christian ethics a little more “reasonable.” Put the quarter in the slot, pull the handle and out comes the correct ethical answer to one’s particular question. The same spirit that produced the Talmud produced Rush’s Institutes. The same devotion to the rabbis gives us the fascination with Rabbi Rousas, Rabbi Gary, and Rabbi Greg.

Now, I must admit that I don’t see the linkage between religious certainty of Federal Vision that ends up denying the clear teaching of scripture on the sufficiency of Christ and the religious certainty of Theonomy that affirms the clear teaching of scripture on the certainty of Christian ethics. I think our Ph.D. is confused on this point.

Second, this man is disingenuous in the section I have put in bold. I have just finished Bahnsen’s chapter in “God and Politics” and in that chapter Bahnsen admits that determining God’s mind in the application of His Law-Word is hard work that will find disagreement among those who are doing the work. So the idea that it is all as easy as a vending machine is just plain false witness.

Third, note that this man has religious certainty that Theonomists dare not have religious certainty on ethical issues. He is ethically certain that biblical ethics shouldn’t communicate ethical certainty. Irony anyone?

Also, keep in mind that without ethical certainty in Biblical ethics we are inevitably going to be left with a church that is filled with each man doing what is right in his own eyes since uncertainty leaves each man to determine ethics for himself.

Fourth, this man doesn’t like the idea of Biblical Christians coming to determined conclusions regarding Biblical ethics (derisively referring to such men as “rabbis”) and yet, if Biblical Christians don’t arrive at determined conclusions regarding Biblical ethics then somebody else will have to determine the ethics by which the church and christians in the culture live by. I suspect for this man he would prefer Natural Law rabbis such as Rabbi John Dewey, Rabbi Jaques Derrida, and Rabbi Peter Singer as opposed to Rabbi Gary North, Rabbi Greg Bahnsen, and Rabbi R. J. Rushdoony. The point here is that someone is going to have to do the work on determining ethics. Would we prefer that work to be done by God’s men or the men of Natural Law?

Finally, it is despicable in the highest degree for this man to say that the same anti-Christ spirit that produced the talmud is the spirit that energized Rushdoony when he wrote the Institutes. That is a meanness that is beyond mere uncharitableness. That comment is hatred exemplified.

Second, let me question a premise of your question. I’ve been thinking about and dealing with theonomy since you were (probably) a child. I don’t know anyone, even one ardently opposed to theonomy, who thinks that it’s childplay. I am convinced that it’s profoundly wrong, but I’ve never thought it was “easy.” Like the FV, theonomy has to be unravelled and that’s hard work. Further, just as there are varieties of the FV, there are varieties of theonomy. Just as the FV is a moving target, so theonomy was a moving target. Today hardly anyone wants to admit being a theonomist. I half expect someone to deny that Greg was really a theonomist!

Allow me to proffer that the reason that theonomy can’t be unravelled is because it is Biblical Christianity.

Second, it is the case that there are varieties of theonomy, just as there are varieties of R2Kt virus proponents. I mean not even this man is as extreme as Lee and Misty Irons. Diversity in a movement is no proof of it being specious.

Personally though, I don’t think it is difficult at all to unravel R2Kt virus theology — or Natural Law for that matter.

Third, both movements have in common a deep concern for the collapse of the culture and our place in it. Some versions of theonomy/reconstructionism have culture being gradually regenerated through Christian influence and some expect a cataclysm out of which arises a Reconstructionist phoenix. FV wants to regenerate the culture through sacerdotalism (baptismal union). Both are visions of Christendom restored.

All this section is, is a complaint about post-millennialism.

Yes, it’s true that postmillennialists like B.B. Warfield, Jonathon Edwards, and Athanasius thought culture would be gradually influenced through Christian influence. Should they be run out of the Church as well?

Many Reformed men throughout Church history anticipated Christendom (Christ’s Kingdom) being restored. Do a-millennialists, like this man, believe that the notion of Christendom is a notion that should be repented of (yes, he once said that)? Does he mean to suggest that all post-millennialists throughout history need to repent?

These factors help explain why so many theonomists have been attracted to the FV and vice-versa. I realize that not all theonomists are FVists nor are all FVists theonomists and I realize that some theonomic groups have been justly critical of the FV, nevertheless, I regard those arguments as a family fight.

I realize that not all R2Kt advocates are followers of Lee and Misty Irons. I realize some R2Kt advocates have been critical of Lee and Misty Irons, nevertheless, I regard those arguments as a family fight.

The reluctance to debate Greg was grounded in some of the same concerns that folk have about the FV. At first it was regarded as a weird novelty, to which the critics didn’t want to give credibility, and then it was viewed as a threat. The perception of the FV has gone through the same process. At first, no one wanted to take it seriously. It was only after the Kinnaird case that people really began to pay attention (and Kinnaird denies holding the FV, but his relations to the FV weren’t clear a couple of years ago). Now churches are acting to protect themselves against the FV.

The reason people didn’t want to debate Dr. Greg Bahnsen is that he would have kicked their R2Kt virus butts up and down the Debate hall. Don’t let this guy kid you.

Second, a debate of sorts did take place in the literature. Compare the “Theonomy — A Reformed Critique” with “Theonomy an Informed Response” and it becomes dreadfully obvious who won the debate. Read Dr. Ken Gentry’s “Covenantal Theonomy” which was a response to Dr. T. David Gordon’s R2Kt virus writings and it becomes dreadfully obvious who won the debate. Read Dr. Greg Bahnsen as he dissected and dessicated Dr. Meredith Kline’s work on theonomy and it becomes dreadfully obvious who won the debate. Indeed, wherever and whenever the debate has been entered into the Klinean school has been sorely bruised.

Theonomy may be patently wrong, but that doesn’t mean that it’s an easy case to make. Like the FV, theonomy is a huge ball of twine that has to be unwound in multiple directions.

And Theonomists are still waiting for someone to make a dent.

Like theonomy/reconstructionism, FV has strong, colorful leaders.

Is this a fault, an argument for boring leadership, or an admission that the virus types are bland, vanilla, and flat?

Like Doug Wilson, Greg was fast on his feet and a good debater. Greg was a trained philosopher and could be intimidating. That also probably contributed to reluctance to debate him.

LOL… What contributed to reluctance to debate Bahnsen was fear.

Non-theonomic students at WSC, when I was a student, who wanted to enter this presbytery of the OPC lived in mortal terror of being grilled by Greg. He was said to question non-theonomic students ruthlessly on the floor of presbytery unless they had taken private tuition from him! I’m not saying that this is fact, it’s just my recollection of what happened c. 1984-7. I guess theonomists will deny it ever happened. “St Greg could never have done such a thing.”

The R2Kt virus house can only be built by tearing down Bahnsen. This is pettiness to the max.

I also remember Rabbi Gary saying once that if anyone criticized theonomy that he would “bury” them (ala Khrushchev). I got some pretty heated correspondence for daring to offer some mild criticisms of theonomy/reconstructionism in a short dictionary article! Imagine what would happen to one who dared to question one of the Rabbis directly?

If you can’t stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.

As Bahnsen believed that Theonomy and Biblical Christianity were synonymous I can no more fault him for defending the faith then I can fault the Apostle Paul for defending the faith against Judaic versions of Christianity.

“A second problem with pluralism as a goal for our society concerns the need for social cohesion. Sociologists widely agree that a common religion is necessary to hold a society together. When the religious base of a society is undermined, or its unifying vision is lost, the fragmentation of life and the polarization of society is likely to occur. Our society’s confessional pluralism, however, prevents foundational biblical principles from being the basis of social cohesion. And, thus, the issues of public policy are becoming increasingly intractable.”

David M. Carson
God & Politics — pg. 118

The resolution commonly pursued to the problem of pluralism that Carson notes is to create a pagan civil religion with the intent of serving as the unifying glue to hold a society together. The success of such a civil religion to serve as social glue is its ability to borrow enough from the competing religions in the society to satisfy all the adherents of the different religions. The result is a civil religion that is characterized by pagan syncretism. In America this civil religion was most clearly seen in the Chapel service in Washington DC following 9/11.

The observation here is important because one clear implication is that as long as there are religions out there who insist that confessional pluralism is something that we need to institutionalize are in reality working to insure that the civil religion of pagan syncretism will be the religion of the nation. Radical two Kingdom virus people should take special note of this.

Without some religion providing the glue which makes for social cohesion the result will be cultural disintegration and balkanization.

If people want the full context of this conversation, it is taking place at,

Why Is John Calvin Still Important?

The reader also needs to know that Darryl Hart and I have a long history. Dr. Darryl Hart is one of the key promoters of the R2Kt virus. He also delights in zinging his opponents. As such I try to return the playfulness.

___________________________________________

Darryl: I guess you don’t know how you sound. If you want to know how you sound I encourage you to read the comments at IronInk where I am cross posting your comments. The people there hear you to sound like someone very confused. I agree with them.

Can you deny that defacto godlessness reigns in the public square in this country? Obviously you can’t. Indeed you are contributing to it by insisting either that the public square be deistically sanitized of “religion” or that the polytheism of all religions be allowed into the public square. Yes, indeed Mr. Darryl, godlessness does reign.

I find it amusing that you are living in a society that aborts 1.3 million people annually, that is actively warring against Christianity in the curriculum of the government schools (consider California’s recent homosexualization of the school curriculum) where the State is constantly taking up the mantle of God walking on the earth, and you can say you wouldn’t want to live in a society of godlessness. You crack me up you silly man.

You glory in this virtuous society but I bet you if the unborn could speak they might say that Iraq is better than these United States.

You continue to be ignore the reality that the common grace of God may mitigate in any given society the degree of hostility that pagans have towards Christians. Because of this the godlessness in one culture may not be as far advanced in one society that is against Christ as it is in another. Even a Ph.D. ought to be able to understand this Darryl.

To make it as explicit and simple as possible for you Darryl, some godlessness is not as bad as other godlessness because some godlessness remains comparatively muted due to the reality that the worldview of the muted godlessness is being muted because of the remaining capital of Christianity that remains in the comparatively muted godless Worldview that is informing that society. In short the contradictions have not yet worked themselves out in the direction of full throated godlessness. So, people are either for or against God’s people but that for(ness) or against(ness) is comparatively stronger or weaker depending on how far the anti-thesis has worked itself out.

Finally, in your last example, I would say it is less bad, due to God’s common grace.

How many times are we up to where you imply I am a hypocrit by serving in the CRC?

I hoped I helped you to understand concepts that my children understood when they were in the fifth grade.

BTW, I know my theology stinks, but I do think you mean to say that Christ rules, not theology. It would be hard for me to imagine a doctrine ruling, and it would even be harder for me to believe that you could entertain the rule of anything else but Christ.

First, thanks for humbly admitting that your theology stinks. That took a lot for you to admit, I’m sure. You are to be commended.

Second, certainly Christ rules, but how would we ever know Christ apart from Christology? You’re not going pentecostal on me are you Darryl?

I’ll shut off my faucet if you turn off your constant dripping.

Bret, at the risk of unleashing another torrent of words, I don’t see any in-between in your thinking (except when it comes to your remaining in a denomination — the CRC — where less in-between thinking would be useful). Everything (minus the CRC) is either-or.

You mean kind of like the idea of he who does not gather with me scatters? You mean kind of like he who is not with me is against me?

You surely are right Darryl. I do not believe that there is such a thing as neutrality.

Don’t worry about the torrent of words. On this subject I have a vast reservoir.

And bless your Ph.D. theological heart, you keep right on with your homey jabs implying I am a hypocrite by being in the CRC. How many different times at different forums have you done that now?

You seem to be saying that the United States is as hostile to true religion as Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. How can you expect any Christian who would rather live in the United States than Iraq to take yourself seriously?

Oh fiddlesticks Darryl! While there is no doubt no such thing as neutrality, hostility certainly can come in varying degrees. Now, I surely agree that no one should take me seriously if I really were saying, the words you are trying to put in my mouth, that these United States are as bad as Iraq, but as I never said that, people are free to take me seriously.

Now, how people can take you seriously after advocating a neutral realm where theology does not reign leaves me quite flummoxed.

Also, you keep insisting that you separate church and state, but since the state administers justice and grace, and does so on the basis of administering God’s word, there does seem to be at least a measure of redundancy between church and state.

I don’t know where you get some things you keep repeating. I keep correcting and you keep repeating what I’ve corrected you on.

Ah well, that’s part of the fun of it all isn’t it?

I tell you what. You quit with your downpour of misrepresentations and I’ll quit with my torrent of words.

Zrim,

One of the interesting aspects to the prevailing notions of parochial education, as seen in this discussion, is the idea that children and adults are somehow in different categories with regard to their respective spiritual states. Grounded in the understanding that they are in impressionable developmental stages it is not further more carefully considered that a distinction must be made between creational and spiritual development. Rather, the differences are collapsed and it is assumed that there is a direct correspondence between creational and spiritual status. The upshot is that children must be hedged in while adults are free to roam in and out of sacred and secular venues with nary a worry.

First, there is no such thing by secular, if by secular you mean something that isn’t dependent upon and reflective of some faith system or religion. Adults are free to roam in and out of venues that are informed and controlled by various faiths.

Second, I would suggest that the way you make the distinction between creational and spiritual development is gnostic. You are suggesting that children can be put in a climate where they are taught to think in an adversarial way to Biblical Christianity and yet they will not be affected in their spiritual development. This makes me think that the only way I will understand your backward perspective is if I spend some time standing on my head.

The idea that what you are calling creational development is isolated and separated from spiritual development is just one more example of the constant dualism’s that we find in the R2kt virus system. Because there is a dualism between creational and spiritual development it is possible to saturate your children in a creational pagan school setting without there be any effect on your children’s spiritual developoment. Dualism. Gnosticism.

But according to this logic, the older convert, say in high school, college or beyond, should drop out of his/her secular educational environs until he/she is declared “satisfactorily grounded in the faith” (whatever that might entail).

Actually, if they are not grounded in the faith that might not be a bad idea unless they have the capacity to learn what is not true and what is true at the same time. I have personally known some people who became converted in post-graduate studies and were able to do that.

But nobody ever actually seems to demand this of older converts; they only demand it of physically younger believers. Not only that, but this seems to suggest that by virtue of an older age alone sinners are somehow less vulnerable to the effects and influences of sin.

You cite that nobody demands this of older converts and yet you frequently observe what a mess the current Church is. Could there be a correspondence between those two statements?

So, I think this observation of yours, bounces off of somebody who thinks it would be a good idea for older converts to somehow get grounded in their faith as quickly as possible. Another thing that needs to be said here is that given the way that God designs life, our foundation of truth is to be laid when we are young. If we don’t get it when we are young, the nature of life makes it difficult to get it later.

Evidently, the ages of 18 and/or 21 must be the point at which this vulnerability is significantly lessened. Does that really make sense, especially when plenty of fully grown and schooled-up believers clearly can get so much wrong while younger ones can be observed quietly remaining faithful? But I just can’t bring myself to admit that my physical age hedges me in…isn’t that Jesus’ job? I know it drawls howls around here to suggest that catechesis with dad every night buries the influences of either sacred or secular educators every day, but something tells me that at root in much of this child/adult divide is more a modern idea that youth are to be handled with kid gloves because they are so very different. This over against a Christian notion that sin is an equal opportunity affliction and cares very little for creational walls built to keep it out and righteousness in.

Your quip about Jesus’ job indicates that you seem to think that Jesus works apart from means. Sure it is Jesus’ job and the way he often does his job his by parents being faithful to the vows they made when they brought their children to Baptism.

Second, I would say that most home schoolers don’t suddenly set their children free at 18 or 21 the way you are suggesting. Home school parents practice what might be called incremental exposure. Home school parents put their children in situations that are appropriate to their age all along the way. They then debrief and train. In such a way when the children get to 18 or 21 the children have been trained. Even then though, when they attend the pagan universities there will be phone calls home asking parents about what they learned in this or that class. Indeed, with my oldest daughter I had to attend a class to politely inform the professor he was getting the puritans wrong in some pretty significant ways. He received my correction. Said he would look into my points and later came back to my daughter and told her, “your father was right.” So, Zrim, the training doesn’t stop at 18 or 21 and it doesn’t even stop while they are in school.

You really are constructing straw men.