Baptist Bloviating

Baptist Minister David McCrory wrote,

“A person must first be converted by the Gospel before they can obey the Gospel. Thus, making a person a disciple of Jesus Christ is a prerequisite to a person being taught by Jesus Christ. When viewed from this perspective, the Great Commission clearly outlines the biblical pattern for the Church to follow:

1. Make disciples 2. Baptize them. 3. Teach them to …observe all things…

Therefore, according to Christ’s command, baptism is an act of obedience, subsequent to conversion, and a demonstration of one’s willingness to live as a teachable disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ

Bret responds,

Your contention does you no good because,

1.) There is clearly continuity between the covenant of grace prior to the Christ and the covenant of grace upon Christ’s incarnation. This is seen in Jer. 31 where the promise of the new covenant includes the writing of God’s law on their hearts. What law is it that will be written on their hearts?

Why the Mosaic law — the law of the Old Covenant — of course. That law included the requirement to give children the sign of the covenant.

2.) Since God does not explicitly rescind his requirement to give children the sign of the covenant, the requirement to bring His children to be marked with the sign of the covenant remains. Also the reality of Household Baptisms in the New Testament excoriates your reasoning.

In the New Testament we see household baptisms frequently. Now, the Baptist will insist that there are no children explicitly mentioned in those NT accounts but even if there were not children there the reality of Household Baptisms utterly crushes the Baptist contention that infants should not receive the sign of the covenant (Baptism) because the principle of household Baptism teaches that all who are members of the household are baptized. So, you see, it is really irrelevant whether or not there were infants baptized in those household Baptisms in the New Testament because the principle of household Baptism teaches that if there had been infants there they would have been baptized.

3.) In Matthew 28:18-20 Christ commands us to Baptize the nations (the Greek word is ethnos – Literally peoples). He who commands all Peoples to be baptized also commands infants to be Baptized; for a command concerning a group includes all those who fall in that group (genus – species). The design of Christ in the Great Commission is to teach the manner of collecting and conserving the Church in the World until the end of time and to prescribe that manner to the apostles and their successors. Now as the Church that the Apostles are being called to collect and conserve consists of infants as well as adults (that is the way it had always consisted and there is absolutely nothing anywhere in any text that reverses this paradigm) so that manner that Christ is teaching them in building the Church has reference to both adults and children, but according to the condition of each: that adults newly entering into the Covenant should be taught before they are Baptized, while infants should be Baptized as covenanted and Christian, and afterwards be taught in their own time. If an objection is placed here that discipling of the Peoples precedes the Baptizing of Peoples we would observe that Christ speaks of discipling and teaching here first since a primeval Church among Gentiles would by necessity be first a collection of adults, therefore naturally discipling and teaching precedes baptizing, just as those strangers and aliens coming into the Covenant Community in the Old Testament would have been discipled and taught before they were circumcised. The goal then of the Gentiles entering into the Covenant as Covenanted parents wasn’t to get their seed to accept Christianity, rather their goal was to teach their children that they were Christian that they might not reject their covenant identity, conceding that if they fully and finally reject Christianity (a thing that by all rights should be uncommon among those trained in the Covenant) then their children were Gentile seed but not God’s seed (consider Esau). The distinction and concession underscores the reality that Salvation is always by Grace and not Race while at the same time maintaining that because of Grace, Grace often runs in familial lines (Deuteronomy 7:9).

We believe that in the Great Commission passage when Christ lays the emphasis on ‘All Nations’ He is doing so to firmly implant in Jewish thinking that the Gospel is not solely a Jewish concern. In this way our Lord makes clear that the Gospel is no longer provincial and in issuing the order unto Baptism we see a new sacramental sign given by our Lord Christ to replace the Old Covenant sign of Circumcision, just as He earlier gave His table as a sign of the New Covenant to replace and fulfill the old covenant sign of the Passover. The Great Commission underscores that the Church is no longer primarily Jewish. This ‘New’ thing is given a new sacramental sign to replace and fulfill circumcision (a new sign for a new covenant). But the Church is not told to exclude its children and here in Matthew 28 is the place where by all rights that should have been said if it was going to be said.

Baptist Minister David McCrory writes,

The practice of infant baptism was birthed in the Roman Catholic Church and is based on superstitious rationalistic humanism. It is a logical argument constructed from a faulty hermeneutic. While consistent, it is consistently wrong. The baptism of infants has no exegtical support for, as many respected Reformed theologians admit, it is not found in Scripture. Calvin himself confessed, “The word baptize signifies to immerse. It is certain that immersion was the practice of the primitive church.”

Bret responds,

1.) In point of fact the practice of infant Baptism was birthed in the Old Testament with the practice of circumcision. In the New Testament Baptism replaces circumcision as the sign of the covenant.

In circumcision, the organ of generation was given the covenant mark by its circumcised status, signifying that man’s hope is not in generation but in regeneration, a new life in the Lord. The reason circumcision was eclipsed with the coming of Christ is that w/ Christ the Regeneration Himself had arrived and had been bloodily cut off. There is therefore no longer the need for the symbol since the reality had come and so no longer reason for the organ of generation to be bloodily marred. Further, Circumcision is eclipsed as the covenant sign because Christ, in His Cross work, fulfills the bloody cutting off of sin that circumcision proclaimed. Because Christ on the Cross is the Church’s circumcision no more bloody rites are left to the Church and so water becomes the new sign and seal thus indicating the washing away of sin by the blood of Christ.

Christ’s command in Matthew 28 to Baptize is the Scripture where we find a new covenant sign is given for a new and improved covenant.

Baptist Minister David McCrory,

“The case for infant baptism is always built upon a series of arguments based on reason, supposedly flowing from Scripture. It is said to be a natural result of interpreting Scripture based upon ‘good and necessary consequence’. But an exegetical study of Scripture will evidence over and over again infant baptism can neither be proved to be good or necessary. The testimony of Scripture will eternally stand at odds to an extra-Scriptural practice.”

The case of infant baptism is built upon the Reformed Hermeneutic which teaches that whatever God says in the Old Testament remains true for the New Testament unless God specifically rescinds something He said earlier in the Old Testament. The Reformed Hermeneutic does not teach, like the Baptist hermeneutic, that in order for something from the Old Testament to remain abiding God has to repeat that something again in the New Testament. So, since God in the earlier scripture instructed that the children of His people were to be given the sign of the covenant, the Reformed rightly hold that children in the New Covenant should be given the sign of the covenant. The fact that the sign has morphed from circumcision to baptism is seen in Jesus words in Matthew 28:16-20. The Church in the new covenant age will have baptism as the sign of the covenant and children are to receive that sign just as they received it in the old covenant.

Keep in mind here that Baptist reasoning is saying that in the new and better covenant, the children, unlike the children in the old and worse covenant, are not to receive the blessing of the sign of the covenant.

David McCrory — Baptist Minister

“Christ’s own disciples failed to note the perceived continuity between circumcision and baptism. Peter, in the first Christian sermon, required of the circumcised men of his day, those who were already circumcised, to repent and be baptized. Their former status, and the sign of their former status, was of no avail. The old had passed away and all things were being made new.”

Bret responds,

The sign of the former status was of no avail because the reality that the former status pointed to (Christ) had come. The necessity for Baptism, even for the circumcised, was lodged in the reality that the old order had been transcended. It is really this simple. It is not because there was no relation between the old and new covenants.

At best the Baptist withholds water from the infant because he thinks he cannot know that the infant is saved. For this reason water is offered to the confessor only. Some Reformed Baptists believe infants ‘may’ be saved but that it cannot be known with any certainty until they confess Christ. They need that evidence. (Never mind that the Baptist does not know with any greater certainty that the adult confessor is saved. Witness the recidivism rate among Baptist baptized converts.) A persons confession is his ticket to the act.

The Reformed, on the other hand, [at least those that are consistent and covenantally astute] ] look to the promises of God for the condition of their children. The Baptist looks at a human confession for proof and the Reformed look to the divine promise. The most charitable view that can be given the Baptist is that his view is anthropocentric as opposed to the Reformed position which is Theocentric. A more realistic view in my estimation is that the reformed Baptist at this point has a latent synergism in his theology.

Whether or not the Baptist realizes it, his position implies a disjunctive relationship between the old and new testaments. His argument usually revolves around Moses and the law–we are no longer under the law. But circumcision is not Mosaic; circumcision is Abrahamic. The rite was given to Abraham to whom the promise of the Messiah was given and that promise was to him and to his seed and that promise came 430 years before the law. Moses is irrelevant to the discussion.

Was It Possible For Jesus To Give In To Temptation & Sin?

Recently, in a formal setting among Pastors someone threw out the question of whether or not Jesus could have sinned. Now, I had always been trained that Jesus could not have sinned though the temptation remained very real. However, the answer that was thrown out and affirmed is that Jesus could have sinned. Inwardly, I groaned at this affirmation and since that meeting I have gone back and double checked my training.

In double checking my training I learned that Charles Hodge (he of Princeton fame) believed that Jesus could have sinned. Hodge reasoned that the temptation to sin assumes the possibility to sin. I don’t agree with Hodge but in reading someone as illustrious as Hodge I realized that the idea that Jesus could have sinned was not as obviously muddleheaded as I had thought. I mean … if Hodge can make this kind of mistake then it is understandable that lesser mortals could make it as well.

The refutation of Hodge is really quite simple though the refutation probably opens up more questions. The refutation to Hodge is that since Jesus didn’t sin, Jesus couldn’t have sinned since the not sinning of Jesus demonstrates that Jesus was predestined not to sin. In retrospect no action of any being could have been other than what that action was after the fact for the action, after the fact, belongs to God’s decretal ordering.

I suppose, at this point it is possible for someone to now ask, “Could God have decreed Jesus to sin, thus resulting in Jesus sinning (?) Even here though we run into the reality that as God is both a eternal and necessary being, therefore all of God’s actions, including His decrees, are likewise eternal and necessary. In short, since God is eternal and there never was a time when He wasn’t it is also true that God’s decrees are likewise eternal having the same quality of eternality of God. This explains why we refer to the decrees as “The eternal decrees of God.”

There is a problem though in the presupposition of an affirmative answer to the question,could Jesus have sinned, and that problem is that such an affirmation seems to presuppose the non-Reformed premise that choices that were made, were not made by necessity. This introduces the non-Reformed notion of absolute contingency which suggest that decisions made or actions taken could have been other than they were.

However, the question can also be addressed from another angle. When we talk about the person of Jesus Christ we must take into consideration the question of the properties of His person-hood. Any hypothetical actions of Jesus Christ that we consider, can not be such that those actions violated the properties of his person-hood.

If we were to talk about hypothetical things that I might or might not do we could come up with any number of examples of things I might have done that I didn’t do. However, all of these examples of things I might have done that I didn’t do must remain consistent with the properties of my human person-hood. I might have decided to become a body-builder but I could not have decided to become a insect. (Insert favorite insult here.)

When we consider the person of Jesus Christ and the issue of sin, we have to say again, contrary to Hodge, that Jesus could not have chosen to sin for the same reason I could not choose to be an insect. Both Jesus Christ and I could not make those decision because to make those decisions would be a violation of the property of our person-hood. For myself, humans do not have the ability to become insects and for Jesus Christ — a person with a divine nature — God-Men do not have the ability to sin. Jesus Christ, being very God of very God, had a impeccable and immutable divine nature as a property of His person and as such He could not act in any way that would be contrary to that property.

The implications of this are clear. Jesus could choose to do all things that humans do save those things that humans choose to do that are inconsistent with divinity. Humans who do not have a divine nature choose to sin but a Human who has a divine nature cannot choose to sin.

Now the question that begs being asked is, If Jesus couldn’t sin, then was His temptation really temptation(?) The answer to that question is, “yes.” If our success, as redeemed fallen humans, to occasionally resist temptation, does not negate the reality of the temptation that we occasionally resist then why would Jesus’ always resisting temptation all the time negate the reality of the temptation with which He was presented? Success in resisting temptation does not negate the reality of temptation.

Also, we have to keep in mind at this point, and on this issue, that not only was Jesus divine but also touching His humanity, having no sin nature, He had no inclination to sin.

Hat Tip — Ron DiGiacomo

http://reformedapologist.blogspot.com/2006/09/could-jesus-have-sinned.html

A Conversation On The Priority Of Worship Over Theology

In some Reformed quarters today it is all the rage to say that Worship must precede Theology. As such, in these Churches, all kinds of attention is paid to the Worship service itself and the Liturgy of the Worship service. Now, I certainly agree that we need to be careful regarding our worship but genuine care for our worship requires us to get our theology right, for their will be no Christ-honoring worship where our theology is skewed or confused. Suggesting that doxology precedes theology skews both our theology and our doxology.

A danger in this “Liturgi-centric” approach is that so much effort is expended upon ecclesiastical worship and in emphasizing the importance of worship that the impact of theology on every area of life does not receive the attention it deserves. If people really believe that getting worship right will lead to everything else being right then the outcome of this will be people who know both the solemnity and the hilarity of worship but know little of what theology should look like as we worship God outside the sanctuary in our daily living worship. This kind of liturgi-centirc emphasis can lead to the same old problem of communicating that the sum of Christianity is found in the Church.

Now, as I believe that the worship is at the heart of the Church, and that sound communities are only as good as the theology taught in their Worship centers, I do highly regard worship but there are other life systems in the body that must be attended to or we will have a strong heart and a weak limbic system, or failing auto-immune system, or a worthless nervous system. The means by which a body is kept in shape — from its worship to its ministry of mercy, to its body life — is theology that is Biblical, practical and alluring.

Below is a conversation I had on this subject with a fine Christian Brother. I disagree with him on this subject but I have a high esteem for him.

Dr. Blast

Get the worship right first…or pervert it all.

Bret responds,

Get the theology right and the worship will follow.

Dr. Blast

Not at all persuaded bro. Bret…have seen far too many ‘theological-link picking know-it-alls…who have precious little heart for worship. I would rather say…”get the worshiping heart right…and the theology will follow.”

Bret responds,

Not possible Doc. Literally impossible. You’re arguing for the consequence before the cause. No one will get worship right unless they are smitten with the beauty of the Holy. That is Theology.

What the know-it-alls need is better theology. A theology that does not lead to Christ centered worship is pagan. A theology that is theological-link picking is not Christian theology.

Dr. Blast

No, you are mistaken brother. known and seen too many pastors & children who could pass any theology/catechism exam…but had little real heart for true worship…your bassackwards…a heart for true & vibrant worship might eventually get the theology right, but churches are plagued w/heartless theologians who hate worship, people… & God.

Bret responds,

LOL … bassackwards.

You show me a man who has worship right and I’ll show you a man who has his theology right. You can not worship Biblically what you do not know. This whole movement lately to front-load worship over theology is fundamentally horrid. It is yet one more example of looking for experience and emotion to lead the way over thinking God’s thoughts after him. People who advance this paradigm, while well intentioned, are doing God and true religion a disservice.

Worship is the out-flowing of the minds intoxication with God. You can know more have Worship before Theology than you can have babies before Sex.

People who have their catechisms memorized or their systematic theology down cold who are not at the same time not smitten with the beauty of God do not know their catechisms or their theology. The remedy for such people is to return to their Bibles, catechisms, and theology for it will only be a return to the beauty contained in those where they will find their hearts strangely warmed.

“Theology” that is known in the way that a Medical student knows his cadaver is not Christian theology. The problem for such people is not cured by getting them jazzed up in a worship service or by introducing them to the solemnity of worship associated with smells and bells. The problem is cured by the Spirit given realization that they are the cadavers and God is the Medical student. Only by the Spirit given understanding that God is not a subject to be dissected but a Triune person who fills the earth with His splendor, majesty, and royalty can a person be cured of this theolog-itis. However, when a person is given that understanding they have passed into true theology and are not for the first time ready for worship.

You can not have right worship without right theology and if you have right theology that does not lead to right worship you do not have right theology.

Late Sunday Evening Musing On The Interplay Of Man’s Bipartite Being

Man is a bipartite being. The materialist’s mistake is to reject the incorporeal reality of man and view man only as a bio-chemical machine. Man has a brain, but no mind. Man has a heart, but no soul. Man secretes thought the way liver secretes bile. This is the error that Christians have fought for over two centuries now, but there is another error they must consider.

This other error also implicitly denies man’s bipartite being but this denial is the opposite error of the materialists. This error is the mistake of the Gnostic and it is comprised of the error of denying man’s corporeality. This error views man only as the sum of this abstract thinking as if man’s corporeal embodiment is unaffected by his bio-chemical reality.

If the error of the materialist is to deny man’s incorporeal reality and the effect it has man’s material being, thus seeing man as all enzymes, proteins, and the firing of synapses, the error of the gnostic is to deny man’s corporeal reality and the effect that his corporeal reality has upon man’s spiritual being, thus seeing man as all thought, contemplation, and ethereal spirituality.

But man is a bipartite being and who God has made him to be in his corporeal reality impinges upon and colors the manifestation of the incorporeal, just as the incorporeal reality impinges upon and colors the manifestation of the corporeal.

If God has made the corporeal nature of men to be distinct, though all sharing the imago dei, then it should not be surprising to find that as distinct tribes, tongues, and nations are, by grace visited w/ redemption, that spiritual reality of redemption, as poured over the distinctions of corporeality that God has created — and made good — will find itself being colored and shaped by those God given corporeal distinctions — just as redemption will color and shape man’s corporeal realities.

It seems the only alternative to this is to suggest that God has made men all the same and that it is only sin that makes us to differ. Such a view would suggest that man’s corporeality is mute once He is visited by grace, thus suggesting that man’s corporeality is really inconsequential once he has been visited with regeneration. This view would seem to deny our bipartite being. Remember here, when we are renewed it is our sin nature that is put off — not our human-ness.

Further such a view that does not allow for diversity among those who share the Imago Dei would seem to suggest that the result of grace is an expected sameness in the renewed-humanity. Is it really the case that the new man in Christ is a new man completely stripped of his distinct human-ness , or as more likely is the case, is it that the new man is new precisely because all that comprised his human-ness is now bent in a God-ward direction?

Of gods past and gods present

“Historian Herbert Butterfield, in noting the different political spirit of Western man since the French Revolution and how he had once, long before 1789, responded to the intractable difficulties of human coexistence & social order, has remarked that men ‘make gods now, not out of wood and stone, which though a waste of time is a fairly innocent proceeding, but out of their abstract nouns, which are the most treacherous and explosive things in the world.'”

M. E. Bradford — American Man Of Letters / Classicist
Original Intentions; On The Making & Ratification of the united States Constitution –pg. 18

We are still the knuckle dragging idolaters that pagan man was. The only difference is that our idolatry is gnostic, which is seen in how we reify nouns turning them into gods. Pagan man had the good sense to eschew abstract gods for the safety of the concrete gods of wind, water, fire, and wood. The idolatry of the pagans was a mirror opposite of modernity as it embraced an animism that found its gods in all things material. The whole notion of evolutionary progress of religion is a myth, as measured by its own standard. We have not advanced from an earlier age where men worshiped false gods. We have merely abstracted our gods so that we no longer have the inconvenience of carrying them around with us or of building shrines in order to lodge them. Pagan man today is religiously one with his pagan forefathers. Their multitudinous gods were concrete. Our multitudinous gods are abstract. We simply are to close to our gods to see that they are just as fatuous and just as powerless as the gods that were made out of trees and iron.

It remains true today with our abstract gods what was true of the concrete gods made by the pagan idolaters of old.

Isaiah 44:9 All who make idols are nothing,
and the things they treasure are worthless.
Those who would speak up for them are blind;
they are ignorant, to their own shame.

10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
which can profit him nothing?

11 He and his kind will be put to shame;
craftsmen are nothing but men.
Let them all come together and take their stand;
they will be brought down to terror and infamy.

12 The blacksmith takes a tool
and works with it in the coals;
he shapes an idol with hammers,
he forges it with the might of his arm.
He gets hungry and loses his strength;
he drinks no water and grows faint.

13 The carpenter measures with a line
and makes an outline with a marker;
he roughs it out with chisels
and marks it with compasses.
He shapes it in the form of man,
of man in all his glory,
that it may dwell in a shrine.

14 He cut down cedars,
or perhaps took a cypress or oak.
He let it grow among the trees of the forest,
or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.

15 It is man’s fuel for burning;
some of it he takes and warms himself,
he kindles a fire and bakes bread.
But he also fashions a god and worships it;
he makes an idol and bows down to it.

16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
over it he prepares his meal,
he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
He also warms himself and says,
“Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.”

17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
“Save me; you are my god.”

18 They know nothing, they understand nothing;
their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
and their minds closed so they cannot understand.

19 No one stops to think,
no one has the knowledge or understanding to say,
“Half of it I used for fuel;
I even baked bread over its coals,
I roasted meat and I ate.
Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left?
Shall I bow down to a block of wood?”

20 He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him;
he cannot save himself, or say,
“Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?”