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Recently I heard an account where a Pastor was faulted for the certainty he brought with him in delivering his sermons. The comment was made to this good man, “You act as if you can just slap the doubt out of people.”

I am still alternating between laughter and incredulity over this account. Never mind the irony that this person who came to his pastor was certain that his pastor was being overly certain. Never mind the implied desire for incertitude to come from the pulpit on matters of eternal life and death. Nevermind that many Pastors rightly wish indeed it was only as simple a matter as slapping the doubt out of people.  What is the most appalling about this statement is that it came from an Elder.

However, this attitude that hates certitude as coming from the pulpit is merely the spirit of the age. Postmodernism does not allow any minister to insist upon capital “T” truth opting instead for person variable small “t” truth. When one believes in capital “T” truth and one has studied to show himself approved a workman who needeth not to be ashamed then certitude is the coin of the realm. On the other hand, if a member of the clergy is stuck in the slough of pomo then the only certitude that is allowed is the certitude that incertitude is to be prized above all else. Such clergy never give a “thus saith the Lord,” preferring instead to offer, “well, perhaps this is something that might be true for some of us? However, I don’t want to force on you my truth.”

Masters of the certainty of incertitude say stupid things like, “It’s not about the destination. The joy is in the journey.” Pardon me but if it is not about the destination then why are we on this blinkin’ journey? Masters of the certainty of incertitude will never ever tell somebody they are wrong, spank their children, or remain in Churches that have ministers who are certain. They are the very definition of Beta males and female campus ministry workers.

Even back when I was in Corporate America they were training their leaders in this mind. Managers were told not to confront employees but instead to “come alongside.” They were to try and see themselves as “coaches” and “cheerleaders,” and not “bosses.” Bottled estrogen was provided at all these Corporate meetings.

As for me, I want to have the doubt slapped out of me. I don’t want a minister who can only share with me his own incertitudes from the pulpit. I need someone to point the way. I don’t need someone to sit down and cry with me. This is not a call for a lack of compassion, but a recognition that compassion uncoupled from the truth that points to a way out is the compassion of the effeminate.

Now, I quite admit that certitude coming from stupid people is quite the irritant, but at the end of the day when your certain Pastor is not seeking to slap the doubt out of you, your certain Pastor is instead seeking to say that your doubts are OK. Both of these approaches are birthed of certitude but only one of them has the aroma of Christ.

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6021856661001#sp=show-clips

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) per Sen. Tom Cotton is “a racket.” The way the game works is the 500million dollar endowed SPLC as operating from the Cultural Marxist Left is the attack dog for the Cultural Marxist left assigned the responsibility of labeling center-right organizations as “extremist hate groups.” The SPLC then turns that information to the Cultural Marxist media outlets who then use their platforms to continue the smear all with the purpose of scaring away the donor base of those groups that the Cultural Marxist SPLC and the Cultural Marxist advocacy media.

Watch the 5 minute video and let me know what you think. Interesting that the SPLC ran into a buzz saw that saw the departure of some of its top officials for the very real offenses that they routinely wrongly accuse other organizations. Who would have ever thought that officials at the SPLC would get taken down for charges of racism and sexism? I think that is what is called poetic justice.

In this segment of “My Time In Purgatory,” I’m going to go ahead a wee bit to look at recent developments. However, I am not done with examining the Clown Reformed Church and my time when they had to survive my presence for nearly 25 years.

Following the labeling by the Southern Poverty Law Center (the mother of all euphemisms) of Charlotte Christ the King Reformed as an extremist hate group, the Clown Reformed Church rushed out with their own press release touching all that had happened in 2018. Clearly, the CRC was trying to get out in front of the SPLC story so it wouldn’t splash back on them if it was discovered that at one time the congregation I served for 50 years thought about actually joining the CRC. The Clown Reformed Church press release was filled with the same slander and libel we have come to love and expect from the CRC.

The first error in a cascade of errors ranging from lies to stupidity as from the Press Spokesman – Rev. Smythe Raginwald – was his statement that it was only after the denomination cut me loose as a minister that the congregation I serve itself left the denomination. In point of fact, the Congregation left the Clown Reformed Church in November of 2018. The Denomination did not cut me loose officially until June of 2019. The Church’s leaving the CRC falls in the category of “A better decision has never been made.” My only regret, as the Pastor, is that the congregation didn’t leave in 1995 when I showed up but the congregation that finally left in 2018 was a very different congregation that existed in 1995.

Next in our lineup of dissemblers, the disingenuous, and fabricators is one Rev. Ben Kieber. Rev. Kieber was a chap brought in as an assistant to work in the flagship church of the District. In no short time, Kieber demonstrated his unfamiliarity with loyalty as he connived with another female staff member to have their Senior Pastor tossed for the equivalent of jaywalking.

In the Press Release, Rev. Ben Kieber misrepresents the meaning of “Kinism,” which is commonly done by the enemies of Kinism so that the Cultural Marxists like Kieber may continue to smear the one school of thought which is opposing its Cultural Marxist goal of egalitarianism. Kinism is not a movement. You cannot write a letter and send it to the Kinism Headquarters. Because Kinism is not a movement it is instead a constellation of varying beliefs that are held in different combinations by different “kinists.” As such before one can pontificate on what Kinism is and is not one needs to be specific as to which Kinist he is talking about. There are many individuals who self-identify as “Kinists” who someone as myself, who is Kinist sympathetic, given my own definition, that I would want to distance myself from. What Rev. Kieber seeks to do is to speak in unseemly generalities that do not fit a great number of people who are kinist sympathetic or who might self-identify as Kinist.

Per Kieber my great Kinist crime per his exhaustive in-depth research that was reported to the District Denominational meeting, as reported by the regional and subscription starved Newspaper was that;

“According to his (Kieber’s) research, which Kieber shared with the State Journal, Rachel Simone spoke at the Charlotte church in July 2017. Simone is the founder, promoter, and fundraiser for the white nationalist group Suidlanders of the Republic of South Africa.”

That’s it. I was hounded by these piss ant Cultural Marxist Social Justice Warriors because we had a person in the Pulpit reporting on the crimes of the Marxist African National Congress party in South Africa perpetrated against the South African Boers. We sat for 30 minutes listening to this person pleading for help against the atrocities being committed against White farmers in S. Africa and Rev. Ben Kieber presented this as evidence that I was a heretical kinist? Can you say, idiot? I also think it was evil for the Communists to have murdered the Polish Officer Corps in the Katyn forest. By Ben Kieber’s standard that makes me guilty of being a Nazi. Can you say, idiot?

Secondly, Kieber identifies as “Kinist” what until just a few generations ago was considered just standard Christianity.

Kieber offered.

“McAtee taught and wrote about Kinism, a theology that holds to a belief that races should be kept separate and that people should not marry outside their race.”

Allow me to plead here for people to purchase the Achord & Dow Anthology, “Who is my Neighbor; An Anthology In Natural Relations,” so they can see for themselves what an idiotic thing Kieber offered above. In the Achord & Dow book, the Cultural Marxism that Kieber and the CRC are trying to sell as normative Christian theology is forever seen as jejune. Christians have always believed that people have a natural and entirely normal love for their own people that results in people groups naturally associating with their own people groups. McAtee’s belief has not so much been that “races should be kept separate,” as it has been that the Cultural Marxists should not be successful in putting all races in a racial blender and hitting the high button. The kind of Marxism that Kieber and the CRC are advocating by attacking my beliefs is as old as Marx, Engels, Lenin, and the boys.

“The aim of socialism is not only to abolish the present division of mankind into small states and end all national isolation; not only to bring the nations closer together, but to merge them….”

Vladimir Lenin
The Rights of Nations to Self Determination — pg. 76

1.) ”What will be the attitude of communism to existing nationalities?

The nationalities of the peoples associating themselves in accordance with the principle of community will be compelled to mingle with each other as a result of this association and hereby to dissolve themselves, just as the various estate and class distinctions must disappear through the abolition of their basis, private property.”

~ Frederick Engels in “The Principles of Communism”, 1847

4.) “… Just as mankind can achieve the abolition of classes only by passing through the dictatorship of the proletariat, so mankind can achieve the inevitable merging of nations only by passing through the transition period of complete liberation of all oppressed nations, i.e., their right to secede. “

Vladimir Lenin 
The Rights of Nations to Self Determination 

5.) “Even the natural differences within species, like racial differences…, can and must be done away with historically.”

 K. Marx’s Collected Works V:103,As cited in S.F. Bloom’s The World of Nations: AStudy of the National Implications in the Work of Karl Marx, Columbia University Press, New York, 1941, pp. 11 & 15-19:

For those like Kieber whose reading comprehension skills are challenged allow me to give you the easy version of these quotes. “Marxism has always advocated for the destruction of nations and races by means of amalgamation.”

My real offense against the Clown Reformed Church was that I was and remain opposed to this doctrine of demons that Kieber and the CRC is pushing. That doctrine of demons is the doctrine that would forever sink God’s racial diversity in a sea of monism in the name of “diversity.”

Now as to the accusation that I don’t believe people from other races should marry I again appeal to Church history to demonstrate that if I am guilty of that then I am guilty along with the Church fathers.

“Love imagines that it can overleap the barriers of race and blood and religion, and in the enthusiasm and ecstasy of choice these obstacles appear insignificant. But the facts of experience are against such an idea. Mixed marriages are rarely happy. Observation and experiences demonstrate that the marriage of a Gentile and Jew, a Protestant and a Catholic, an American and a Foreigner has less chance of a happy result than a marriage where the man and woman are of the same race and religion….”

Dr. Clarence MacCartney
20^th Century Conservative Presbyterian Minister

Causes of Separation in 1973 (PCA separates from PCUS) by Dr. John Edwards Richards

• The Socialist, who declares all men are equal.  Therefore there must be a great leveling of humanity and oneness of privilege and possession.
• The Racial Amalgamationist, who preaches that the various races should be merged into one race and differences erased in oneness.
• The Communist, who would have one mass of humanity coerced into oneness by a totalitarian state and guided exclusively by Marxist philosophy.
• The Internationalist, who insists on co-existence between all peoples and nations that they be as one regardless of ideology or history.John Edwards Richards

  One of the founders of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA).

• “The vast majority of good thinking people prefer to associate with, and intermarry with, people of their respective race; this is part of the God-given inclination to honor and uphold the distinctiveness of separate races. But there are many false prophets of oneness, and many shallow stooges, who seek to force the amalgamation of the races.”

  Dr. John E. Richards
  The Racial Problem Facing America (1964)

  The casual reader should not be so foolish as to think that I only have a few quotes to support my position. I have so many quotes from the Church fathers going back thousands of years that it would make Ben Keiber weary just considering having to read all the quotes I have.

  So, Rev. Kieber misses the mark on his criticism of me. I have always believed that while it is not a good idea for people of different races to marry, I have also expressly taught that once such an unwise marriage covenant is entered into the Church should do all it can to support that marriage covenant.

  We are not done with Kieber yet. The man put his foot in it when he volunteered quotes for the regional newspaper hit piece and now Kieber is going to be made to eat both his feet.

  Kieber was quoted in the regional newspaper hit piece that “the denomination’s pastors knew what McAtee was teaching in 2016 and made efforts to address it.”

  This one gives me a belly laugh. Nobody from that god-forsaken denomination ever had one substantive conversation with me about what I had been writing for 20 years. Second, what kind of denomination is it that takes 20 years before it realizes that it has a minister who is putatively teaching rank heresy? I was 20 years in a pulpit they mistakenly thought was theirs and only caught up with my transgressions 2o years later? Talk about incompetence.

As we finish off this installment we look at more statements made by Rev. Smythe Raginwald. Rev. Smythe Raginwald is an Afro-American and leading Social Justice Warrior in the Clown Reformed Church.

Rev. Raginwald said that my beliefs (which to this day have not been given an examination by someone other than Cultural Marxist Social Justice Warriors) were a wake-up call for the CRC. I understand why he would say such a thing. All Cultural Marxists should fear those who are articulating Biblical Christianity. Rev. Raginwald bemoaned the environment where kinism could grow unimpeded. This is the complaint of a Cultural Marxist who believes that God wants all colors to bleed into one. As I’ve demonstrated the Church throughout history has always been conscious about the goodness of God in creating different races.

Here is a quote from a leading Presbyterian of his time. It is typical Reformed thinking;

“If from this we may conclude that ethnic pluriformity is the revealed will of God for the human race in its present situation, it is highly questionable whether the Christian can have part in any program that would seek to erase all ethnic distinctions. That such distinctions may be crossed over by individuals may be granted, but it is at least questionable whether a program designed to wipe out such differences on a mass scale should be endorsed by the Christian. It is this line of argument that the average Christian segregationist uses to back his view. He fears that the real goal of the integrationist is the intermarriage of the races, and therefore the breakdown of the distinctions between them. Many who would be willing to integrate at various lesser levels refuse to do so, simply because they feel that such will inevitably lead to intermarriage of the races, which they consider to be morally wrong. . . .

The mass mixing of the races with the intent to erase racial boundaries he does consider to be wrong, and on the basis of this, he would oppose the mixing of the two races in this way. Let it be acknowledged that a sin in this area against the Negro race has been perpetrated by godless white men, both past and present, but this does not justify the adoption of a policy of mass mixing of the races. Rather, the Bible seems to teach that God has established and thus revealed his will for the human race now to be that of ethnic pluriformity, and thus any scheme of mass integration leading to mass mixing of the races is decidedly unscriptural.

Dr. Morton H. Smith 1923 – 2018
Presbyterian Minister

Rev. Smythe Raginwald managed to complain to the Cultural Marxist newspaper rag that when he came to visit our small church he was “the only Black person there.” This is another knee slapper. Rev. Raginwald could have visited nearly all the Churches in Charlotte and he would have discovered the same thing given that 95.1% of Charlotte’s population is white. Now combine that with the fact that somehow Rev. Raginwald managed to miss observing the other non-Caucasian person who was in attendance at the Church I serve on that morning.

We’ve already dealt, in past entries with Raginwald’s misinformation about the crimes being committed in S. Africa so there is no need to pick that up again. Suffice it to say that there is tons of information out there demonstrating the problem that White Boer farmers are having in avoiding being murdered in S. Africa.

Finally, Rev. Raginwald said Per the regional Newspaper;

“Smythe went alone to the service but, he said, ‘if I had taken my wife Karen, who is white, we would have been heretical in the eyes of this pastor.”

Actually, at the time Smith attended the Church already had a mixed-race couple regularly attending for quite some time and neither myself nor anybody in the congregation screamed “heresy.” We have also had, in the past, families attend who were mixed-race and neither I nor anybody else objected to their presence. It is just an ignorance of epic proportions for  Raganwald to claim that I would have thought he was heretical merely for having a white wife when in point of fact I think him heretical for embracing Cultural Marxist tenets.

In the end, it is not Rev. McAtee who is in error here, but to the contrary, it is Rev. Kieber, Rev. Raginwald, and others from the Clown Reformed Church who have embraced the heresy of Cultural Marxism. If I reject them, I reject them not because of who they are married to nor even because of how torpid they are, but rather because – either self-consciously or not – they have embraced the doctrine of Cultural Marxism. This is unequivocally wrong.

“I was there for some of those Classis of the Asses and they were little more than a gathering of effeminate social justice warriors speaking of all those things important to what could have well passed for a socially relevant meeting of the Democratic Club. And when I say effeminate that is reserved for the men. The women had more testosterone.”

Alan Chamberlain — Psuedonymn
Former Elder Who Attended Several Classis Meetings With Me

I’ve already mentioned a few of the incidents that occurred in the District meetings, but since Alan mentioned the effeminate social justice warrior aspect of it all I thought I would go with more examples.

You will remember from the past entry the chap I spoke of who, while undergoing an Ordination Exam froze up and literally could not answer one question put to him from the floor. From that point forward in my life that chap became the living embodiment of the maxim, “Like a deer in the headlights of an oncoming car.” Certainly, you have been part of something where what you were witnessing was so bad you could barely endure being embarrassed for the person who was being embarrassed. This was that. However, the humor in this situation was found in the fact that while the ordination candidate was unsure of anything theological he sang like a bird when it came to how terrible “racism” was. He didn’t know Jack Shinola when it came to anything theological but he damn sure knew that racism was bad. I was confident that those who trained him were proud and indeed the whole District closed ranks around him and voted for him to pass his ordination exam with the provision that said candidate would continue to do theological training with two other Ministers in the District — two other Ministers who in the past had shown themselvesd in previous meetings to be just as jejune in theology as the candidate had revealed himself to be. It was the only time that one of the synodical delegates later privately pulled me aside and thanked me for drawing a line in the sand and standing. That delegate asked me to “keep the faith.” I told him that I had long ago had lost “the faith” when it came to this district and at this point, I was just going down with the ship.

Another time with another candidate in another ordination exam I asked from the floor if the Seminary graduate who was up for ordination could name the three great Imputations held by the Reformed faith. Now, I understand for the average reader such a question sounds rather abstruse but for a Reformed minister candidate, this is theology 101. You simply cannot get through Seminary without knowing the three great imputations.

1.) Adam’s Sin to his posterity
2.) The sins of the Elect to Christ
3.) The righteousness of Christ to His People

The very second the question had finally fallen from my lips Dr. Rev. Rusty Lugnut — my long-time foil and Simon Bar-Sinister — rose to object at the question and was in high dudgeon. The reader has to understand that the ordination candidate was going to go from ordination to work in Dr. Lugnut’s Church as some kind of assistant. Dr. Rev. Lugnut was instantly in a lather and tried to turn things on me. Dr. Rev. Lugnut shouted at me asking if I realized that “75% of the ministers in the building could not answer my question,” thus insinuating that I was being overly exacting. I calmly but with gusto replied that “I find that completely believable given the track record of the years of ordination exams I have witnessed.”  Dr. Rev. Lugnut was not amused, though this day I consider that to have been one of my more witty comebacks at just the right moment. Dr. Rev. Lugnut was decidedly not amused and my answer only sent him further into orbit. He began a diatribe that had something to do with me and my ancestors but he was mercifully cut off by another minister with the demand to vote on the candidate. To this day I am glad for the interjection of this other minister at that point because if he had not stepped in there was fixing to be blood on the floor between myself and Dr. Rev. Lugnut. Of course, the candidate passed with flying colors. I was a pebble in the shoe of the District chieftains but I had absolutely zero influence.

In yet another exam of yet another ordinate candidate in the area of “knowing one’s Bible,” the candidate was asked a series of questions of where in the Bible fairly well-known passages were located. Over 25 years in my time in the Denomination I met one fellow Minister who shared my convictions and it was this minister who was responsible for examining the candidate with this portion of their exam. For 20-30 minutes he peppered the Candidate with different passages asking for the candidate to provide the book of the Bible they were found in and if possible what chapter. The Candidate got something like 20% correct. A dismal performance by any standard. But you guessed it … he was ordained by a nearly unanimous count. (They always counted on me voting “no.” Indeed, I don’t think in all the time I was loosely connected with these meetings I ever voted for a candidate to be ordained.)

In another famous case, the candidate was asked “Was it possible for Jesus to have sinned.” Now, to be honest I was a bit shocked by this question because it was way out of the norm for the ministers of this District. Usually what one got from these ministers was questions like, “What is your favorite recipe,” or “If you were a piece of clothing, what piece of clothing would you be.” (OK… so I’m exaggerating, but only by a little bit.) The candidate answered the question about Jesus and his possible ability to sin with an “affirmative.” Now, I wanted to jump out of my seat but by this point, I was finally learning there was no upside to being the turd in the punchbowl and kept my place as I enjoyed the amusement by the subsequent discussion that these theological titans entered into on the question “Could Jesus have sinned.” Oh… and he passed almost unanimously.

In another case, the District decided that they were going to have a “listening session” on the issue of sodomy. There were those who were pushing to mainstream the acceptance of sodomy in the Denomination and near my end in the Denomination the wizards of smart decided that they were going to have breakout sessions and discussions on this issue. The wizards of smart found a large auditorium and placed us in groups of 6-8 in order to discuss the issue. At this particular meeting, I had a Deacon with me and he was more adamantly opposed to sodomy than even I am. Poor Bob. By the time these discussions were finished, he was apoplectic. I thought the poor guy was going to stroke out on me.

Before the discussions even began I lodged a protest saying that the mere “conversation” on the matter by itself was part of the process of mainstreaming the vile idea of the Church accepting sodomy as a matter of course. The moderator couldn’t believe his ears. How could anyone object to “a conversation.” However, I knew and know that when these conversations begin it is with the purpose of desensitizing people to the awfulness of what is going to be discussed. The best way to mainstream any perversion is to first start having conversations about it as if there is any possibility said perversion could ever be mainstreamed. The first step of perversion coming out of the closet are conversations about perversions possibly coming out of the closet. They weren’t fooling me with this “conversation” nonsense.

Bob (the deacon from the Church I serve who attended) and I were at different tables. Later I learned that one of the chaps who was part of my discussion table stood in the background and waited to see where I was going to sit so that he could sit at that table. I had crossed swords before with this pro-sodomite chap on the issue and he was bound and determined to be part of any discussion group I was part of so as to cut my influence. And so the two of us – he, the pro acceptance of sodomy in the Church and me, a generation younger than him, defending the quaint notion that the Scripture says that sodomy is a sin. Hammer and tong the two of us went at it while the rest at the table faded into the background. I was quoting Scripture and he was pleading for the experience of those who had been so ostracized and so “hurt” by the Church.  He was making an appeal to emotion and I was making an appeal to the authority of God’s Word. Beads of perspiration formed on his forehead and I was fearful that he was going to start slapping me any second. Meanwhile, I could hear Bob’s voice rising in the background as he was heating up his table in the discussion. It was surreal.

The discussion roundtables ended and the main group as a whole gathered together and once again Bob and I heated up the place in the main discussion. I have only occasionally been as proud of one of my Church officers as I was proud of Bob in this discussion. He raised the black flag and asked for no quarter while giving no quarter.

Our final instance for this entry was how I witnessed a conservative minister destroyed by a Cultural Marxist Church and Disctrict. I still can’t go into all the details of this episode but I can say that I witnessed the district try to bury exculpatory evidence that would have gone a long way towards restoring this minister to his post.

To this day I don’t know the full details of the charges. I do know the charges were not of a nature that required the minister to lose his job. However, as I said, he was a conservative man in a liberal denomination and in an important liberal church and he was succeeding in moving the Church in a conservative direction having only been serving there a few short years. (He took over for Dr. Rev. Dusty Lugnut when he retired.) He was dealing with a revolt from his staff as his postmodern female campus minister was insisting that the minister under question was being far too declamatory from the pulpit. I heard this same woman in minister gatherings try to run this minister down in the presence of other ministers in the district clearly seeking to ruin his reputation. As I said, I did not know and have never learned the details of what amounted to the crime of “jaywalking” which was visited with the punishment of the electric chair by the Church and denomination.

At the District meeting where the minister was finally thrown under the bus and removed from his position, I had in my possession something that nobody else knew I had. I had the exculpatory evidence that stated that the minister was ready to take up again his office. The denomination had required that my minister friend go see a counselor of their choosing. This he did, thus showing the virtue of submission to the denominational “authorities.” The professional and degreed Counselor had given the minister a clean bill of health and had recommended that he be allowed to return to his responsibilities as minister of the Church he was put on leave from. Clearly, this Counselor — a Counselor assigned by the denomination itself — believed that this chap should not be tossed. Yet, in the District denominational meeting dealing with this issue, the wizards of smart decided to bury this report. They had intended not to make known this piece of information which had bearing on the decision making of whether this Pastor should be essentially be removed from his job. They intended to bury this evidence. Except, as I said, I had this evidence.

Up to this point, I had made a stirring defense of this minister but was told in no uncertain terms that I should not be calling into question the work of the Church and district in this matter as they had been very punctilious in their going over the evidence. That is when I snapped and started waving around the document that I had that demonstrated that the very Counselor that they had required the minister in question to go see had signed off a document saying he was fit and ready to go back to work. I started pointedly asking why this document had been conveniently not mentioned. At this point, the red-faced embarrassment was in full glow. They had been caught in their guilt of trying to bury exculpatory evidence. They had been caught red-handed in seeking to put their thumbs on the scale of justice. I was in a full-throated rage and everybody in the building knew it. How could they dare seek to destroy a man’s career by withholding exculpatory evidence? They sought to make flimsy excuses but they knew they were busted.

Despite being caught redhanded in what can only be called a Kangaroo court stunt all that the dirty denominational chieftains wanted to have stamped with approval was stamped with approval and the minister in question effectively had his career ended.

Later one of the delegates pulled me aside and said, “If I’m ever in a tight place, I want someone like you as a friend defending me.” I responded by saying it did precious little good today. And so the most qualified minister I ever met in the Clown Reformed Chruch (CRC) was cashiered but I still have the privilege of calling him a friend yet today.

And do keep in mind these are only the most excessive of things I witnessed.