McAtee On The Rosebrough vs. Mahler Debate IV — Ham’s Curse, Penalty for Theft, Constitutional Oaths

Before listening to Mahler and Rosebrough debate I spent time listening to Deace goosestep Ray Fava through a struggle session. Having listened to those two back to back I was reminding how far ahead of the curve we Kinists were on these Christian Nationalism and “the Bagels are a problem” issues. We Kinists were debating these same exact issues against the proto-“Christian” Maxists 15-20 years ago. Even now you can go to the Iron Ink search engine and plug in “Bojidar Marinov” and find now dated and considerably  heated debate on the same subjects that Deace and Fava and Mahler and Rosebrough were debating. 15-20 years ago it was Kinists like myself, Dan Brannan, Mark Chambers, Davis Carlton, Justin Cottrell, Adi Schlebusch, and Colby Malsbury going hammer and tong against the “Christian” Marxist crowd of Stephen Halbrook, Bojidar Marinov, Daniel Ritchie, Joel McDurmon, R. C. Sproul Jr. and others. Back then those discussions were fierce fire fights between the same two camps now represented by Rosebrough/Deace on one side and Mahler/Fava on the other side. In the past I’ve gone at it with clergy like Joe Morecraft, Chris Streval, Doug Wilson and others on these subjects. The Kinists were here manning the walls on these subjects long before Spangler, Hunter, Garris, and other really good men showed up to lend support. We have been paying the same price for years that the more recent arrivals have sadly been having to pay also. That isn’t to say that all the folks arguing for Christian Nationalism or Kinism agree on everything, rather it is too note we have had the same enemies.

That was an observational aside. As far as the Mahler vs. Rosebrough debate I thought it was funny that at one point Mahler accused Rosebrough of being “Reformed.”  Mahler made it clear that, like all Lutherans, he believes that God knows the future without determining the future.

At one point Rosebrough wanted to dismiss nearly all of Church history on the subject of race and the Jews. Rosebrough noted that one can find all kinds of errant beliefs (he used the example of the perpetual virginity of Mary) held by Church fathers in history. Therefore, all because one can quote Church Fathers (and even Lutheran Church fathers like Luther, Walther, Maier and others) that doesn’t mean that their or the Christian Nationalist is correct. This of course is true. However, the problem Rosebrough has with this line of reasoning is that the testimony of the Church Fathers on this subject is so thick and so long-standing and so prevalent that it beggars the imagination that they were all in error. We have two anthologies out now that demonstrate that this doctrine of Kinism is one of those doctrines that has been believed by all people of all times in all places by the Church. If this subject is disputed let the Alienists produce a couple volumes of anthologies giving us quotes from the Church Fathers through history supporting the egalitarianism and the support of the Jews that is now characteristic of the Alienists. Anabaptists don’t count as Church Fathers and the quotes have to be older than 1960.

Next, Rosebrough demonstrated that he doesn’t understand the possibility that Scripture uses Canaan as a synecdoche for Ham when it came to the curse of Ham. Personally, I don’t have a settled position on the cursing of Ham but I recognize that it can play into this debate. Having said that I think one has to say it is possible that Canaan serves as a synecdoche for all the descendents of Ham. I would also add that merely because those from the lines of Shem and Japheth have themselves been enslaved over the centuries that does not negate the possibility that Ham and his descendants are uniquely cursed by Noah to that end.

Rounding off this section, there were a couple points that Mahler looked bad on.

First, Rosebrough was right in the whole hand amputation debate. If one takes Scripture as their standard it would be unbiblical to chop off of somebody’s hand for theft. Scripture does not teach that as a penalty for theft choosing instead restitution plus penalty for the crime of theft. Mahler was in error in arguing that the amputation of the hand for theft was a perfectly legitimate option in a Christian law order.

Second, Mahler is playing games when he says he has vowed to uphold the Constitution but then turns around and says there is nothing for him to uphold in his lawyer oath to uphold the Constitution since the Constitution has no meaning. If the constitution has no meaning and didn’t have any meaning when Mahler, as a lawyer swore to uphold it, then the man should not have taken an oath to uphold something that by his own definition can’t be upheld. Mahler kept insisting that “An oath to a document (Constitution) that can change doesn’t mean anything,” has to be met with two responses;

1.) Is that what they taught you in law school?
2.) Then how is it you weren’t bearing false witness when you took the oath since obviously the people requiring the oath believe that the Constitution has meaning?

Points for Mahler on the Ham curse possibility explanation. Points for Rosebrough on the discussion of penal sanction in the case of theft and for his exposure of Mahler’s weak position of taking an oath to uphold the Constitution.

McAtee On The Rosebrough vs. Mahler Debate III — Fascism Is A Marxism Variant

Rosebrough and Mahler next go back and forth on whether or not German Fascism was a form of Marxism. Here I score a point for Rosebrough because German Fascism was a form of Marxism. Now, certainly it was a different form of Marxism as expressed among the Communists but they both embrace shards of Marxist thought. Even Hitler admitted this;

“National Socialism derives from each of the two camps the pure idea that characterizes it, national resolution from bourgeois tradition; vital, creative socialism from the teaching of Marxism.”

Adolf Hitler
Interview with Hanns Johst in Frankforter Volksblatt
January 27, 1934

People need to realize that there have been countless variants of Marxism and that the various Marxists disagreed with one another hammer and tong over the decades.

In terms of Marxist variants I offer these just off the top of my head. More could be adduced;

1.) Syndicalists
2.) Mensheviks
3.) Bolsheviks
4.) Nihilists
5.) Max Stirner’s Libertarian Marxists
6.) Anarchists
7.) Cultural Marxists (Originating with Italian Antonio Gramsci)
8.) Trotskyites
9.) National Socialism
10.) Bundism
11.) Maoism
12.) Leninism
13.) Stalinism

Marxist thought has spawned countless movements much like larva spawn flies and if one has studied Marxism at all one realizes that they all hated one another like water hates oil, and yet, once one expression had reached an ascendency often people from the other elements would join that expression which had become hegemonic. This explains, why so many rank and file German communists eventually joined the National Socialist movement. It just wasn’t a stretch for them to enter into this slightly different expression of Marxism. Hitler hinted at this;

It is not Germany that will turn Bolshevist, but Bolshevism that will become a sort of National Socialism. Besides, there is more that binds us to Bolshevism than separate us from it… The petit bourgeois Social-Democrat and the trade-union boss will never make a National Socialist, but the Communist always will.

Adolf Hitler

The reason that a Communist always would make a National Socialist is because Communism and National Socialism has Marxism in common.

Look at it this way. There are a myriad of expressions of Christianity and among those different expression exist real and substantive differences. However, there also exist real and substantive agreements. In the same way the Marxist religion had all kinds of variants but in the end they all claimed Marxism.

Roseborough was correct, as against Mahler, that Fascism is an expression of Marxism. Communism and Fascism are merely variants of Marxism. Marxism, had TONS of variants, of which Fascism was one.

Score 1 point for Rosebrough.

Current tally …. Rosebrough 1.5 …. Mahler 1.5

McAtee On the Rosebrough vs. Mahler Debate II — On The Individual vs. The Collective

Rosebrough grilled Mahler regarding Mahler’s insistence that there is no such thing as the individual. Instinct rises here to agree with Rosebrough but when Mahler makes clear what his definition of “the individual” is one has to agree that Mahler is correct. Mahler is not saying individuals do not exist and all that exists is a hive. Mahler is saying that no individual can claim that he or she are what they are independent of any other considerations. All of us, as individuals, are what we are because of descent as well as the multitude of interrelationships that we develop over the course of our lives. Mahler is merely saying that no man can claim to be sui generis in his individuality.

Mahler, given his definition of individualism (which is admittedly incredibly atomistic) is correct that individualism doesn’t exist.

Now, there are implications though here that need to be examined. Is Mahler saying that because there is no such thing as the individual, given his definition of the individual, that therefore Government arrangement that only emphasize the collective are therefore the best. Corey Mahler did say that he believed in property rights and if that is the case it does strike me that Mahler allows for the existence of what most people would call “the individual” in this political theory. Having said that, Fascism as a political system, which Mahler seems to prefer, has had as a weakness the loss of the individual as that is commonly understood in Western political history. The loss of the individual in a political ecosystem would be a severe loss. To be honest this is one of my concerns about any collectivist political system, but this concern has to be set against the fact that our system of so called individual freedom has, for whatever reason, failed and because of the collectivist agencies in our culture (public schools, churches, media) the rugged American individual largely no longer exists. Our population is as characterized by mindless bots (cogs in a machine) as any collectivist political system you’d like to name. Because of that, Fascism becomes less scary though one could still like to daydream about a system, influenced by the Christian categories of the temporal “One and the Many,” based as it would be on the eternal one and the many could still predominate so that a genuine individualism could exist alongside a healthy collective impulse.

Because, we as a people are no longer Christian, and as such have surrendered how belief in the Trinitarian God permeates a social order, we have surrendered the Trinitarian idea of God’s plurality as expressing itself in our social order/culture in favor of a Unitarian conception of God as located in our State organs. Having given up the God of the Bible in His One and Many expression, we have embrace a Oneism in our social institutions that is no longer complimented by a genuine plurality of authority in our various other institutions. As such we are a collectivist people who believe that in the State we live and move and have our being. This is not a whit different than what one can find in collectivist social orders. The idea that Americans, speaking generally, know anything about true biblical individualism is a joke. This is because all our cultural mediating institutions that once existed in order to drive a true individualism because they were not beholden to a Statist arrangement have been co-opted by the state.

There is no use in Rosebrough arguing for a Democracy where the individual can exist because those days are long gone with the advent of the government schools as combined with the constant conditioning that comes from pulpits and media outlets. All of these work in harmony to collectivize the American mind so that no individual really does exist today. Rosebrough himself, in this debate, reveals over and over again that he is just another collectivist clergy bot reinforcing the collectivist narrative.

Give Rosebrough 1/2 a point for valuing the individual. Take 1/2 point away from Rosebrough for not realizing that the individual no longer exists. Give Mahler a point for being able to read the tea leaves on this subject. Take 1/2 point away from Mahler for not valuing the individual enough.

Final analysis … Mahler + 1/2 point.

Total so far … Rosebrough 1/2 point …. Mahler 1.5 points.

McAtee on The Rosebrough vs. Mahler Debate I — Touching Democracy

Recently there was a debate between two Lutherans here on the subject of political governance. Rosebrough was taking the “Democracy is good” side while Mahler was taking the “Democracy needs to be replaced with Fascism” side.

Overall, I think I was able to be an objective observant because I want nothing to do with either Democracy or Fascism. However, to be fair, I hate Democracy as it is and I can envision a Fascism that would be superior to the Democracy we currently have, though I can also easily envision a Fascism that would be worse than the current Democracy we have.

A few observations;

1.) I am not usually able to sit through these long podcast interviews/debates because they can get so tedious and tendentious. However this one I made through the whole 2 hours 40 minutes. I guess I was captivated by both Rosebrough’s density and Mahler’s unflappability.

2.) Since these chaps were both Lutherans there were times when I, as a Biblical Christian, did not agree with either one. At those points I was completely left agog.

3.) My comments follow the order of the debate. So, if my comments seem disconnected to you you will have to go to the point of the conversation between Rosebrough and Mahler to see what I am getting at.

Turning to my comments on the debate;

1.) Rev. Chris Roseborough faults Corey Mahler for opposing Democracy and yet our founding Fathers viciously opposed Democracy. Idiot points for Roseborough.

Here are Founding Father on Democracy;

“Remember Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a Democracy Yet, that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to Say that Democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious or less avaricious than Aristocracy or Monarchy.”   -John Adams

“Democracies have been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their death.” ~ James Madison

“It has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.” ~ Alexander Hamilton

To put pure and simply, “Democracy sucks.” Americans were never given a Democracy but rather were bequeathed a Representative Republic wherein the franchise (vote) was, generally speaking, (exceptions existed in the states) limited to free white men who owned property. Further the US, when it voted to instil the 17th amendment went even further in its embrace of wicked Democracy.

Indeed, all wise men now oppose this Democratic form of Government the US currently has because it is not anywhere near consistent with what we find in the US Constitution. Corey Mahler is correct in opposing Democracy.

Score this point for Mahler.

Twenty Objections To Andrew Walker’s Objections To Christian Nationalism

Over here;

https://wng.org/opinions/its-not-too-late-to-abandon-christian-nationalism-1741834794

You can find an article criticizing Christian Nationalism. You will find that, just as I have predicted, that having villainized the word “Kinism” the “Christian” enemy is now seeking to villainize the term “Christian Nationalism.” If they are successful in villainizing that term they will villainize the next word or term someone comes up with to describe soci0-political action that aligns with the Christian faith.

You can read the article for yourself. I am going to offer bullet point critiques.

1.) Walker complains that the term “Christian Nationalism” is malleable and so should be given up. However, if this logic applied we would give up most controversial terms or descriptor words. For example, it could be rightly said of the word “Christian” that it is endlessly malleable and essentially vacuous and so should be given up. When a Lesbian Priest of the congregational church says she’s a “Christian,” and Andrew Walker says he is a “Christian” and I say, “I am a Christian” we all mean significantly different things. According to Walker’s logic we should give up the term Christian and move on to another word. Indeed, as Walker writes about Christian Nationalism so we could write about the word “Christian,” “the term has proven an unhelpful distraction.”

Walker is just being stupid here. If we always give up words or terms because the enemy seeks to villainize our language we will never have our own linguistics.

“Christian Nationalism,” like the word “Christian,” or the word “Kinism” should be retained with the very purpose of enraging the reactionary vanguards. There people are the enemy. What do we care what the enemy thinks of our language? It strikes me that as Walker aligns with the enemy in their project in forcing us to give up our language Walker demonstrates he is in league with the enemies of a Biblical and well thought out Christian Nationalism.

2.) Walker next demonstrates that he himself agrees with the enemies of Christian Nationalism (hereafter CN) on the left. Walker criticizes CN because it understands that as it applies to Western Nations CN will have a particularly European ethnic expression. Walker (who is an egghead at some Baptist Seminary) wrings his hands over the fact that CN’s today understand that Christianity does NOT have deeply Jewish roots, thus rejecting what is quite possibly a lingering Dispensationalism on the Baptist Walker’s observations. Christianity has deeply Jewish roots the way the Reformation had deeply Trentian Roman Catholic Roots.

3.) Next Walker tries to convince the reader that Christianity also benefited from North African developments, doubtlessly thinking of Augustine. However, Walker does not mention that his North African developments on Christianity are substantially different than what is meant by North African today. The man thus leaves an impression that the Christian faith was influenced by a black Athanasius or a black Augustine. Of course this is bunkum.

4.) Next Walker implies that the modern CN movement doesn’t embrace the idea that the Christian faith is to be accepted by all nations. Of course we understand that the Gospel is to conquer all nations and that all nations in their nations will one day embrace a Christianity that is colored by the ethnicities of the various peoples that embrace our undoubted catholic Christian faith.

5.) Walker then accuses CN of not treating the Christian faith as transcendent truth. Andrew Walker seems to think that CN today limits the Christian faith to only one ethno-racial vision of national identity. Again, this is absolutely false. See #4 above. Of course Christian Nationalists who belong to the West do see CN as something that will look particularly Western and European in Western and European contexts as existing among Western European peoples.

6.) Walker severely misread Ephesians 2:14-16 which applies to the Church and not necessarily to nations.

Paul is not talking about generic ethnic divides in Eph. 2 but specifically the aspects of the law-covenant that divided Jew from Gentiles. Therefore, someone cannot impose ethnic distinctions onto Paul’s words. The apostle has something uniquely covenantal in mind.

 

Second, the dividing wall was originally the will of God. To take the word “hostility” in and apply it as if multiculturalism is the goal is dangerous. The dividing wall to which Paul is referring is the Mosaic Law, and the Mosaic Law was God’s idea. He made the wall; then he removed it in Christ. The division was God’s will, not the by-product of human sin. “Racism,” on the other hand, is the result of human sin and never is the result of what God commands. By applying Ephesians 2:14 to ethnic strife today you effectively turn God into a “racist.”

 

Third, did Christ remove by his death the various differences between ethnicities and cultures today? Not at all. Before Christ’s death, one culture may prefer beer. Another culture may prefer wine. After the death of Christ the first culture still likes beer and the second culture still likes wine. The death of Christ was not intended to move the needle on these types of ethno-cultural differences (except for the aspects of man’s culture that are sinful). Nor did it overturn other aspects of human relations grounded in creation and nature.

 

More fundamentally, the church and nation are two different entities governed by Christ in different ways–with different laws and rules of citizenship. Walker collapsing the way the Church operates and the way Nations operate is problematic at best.

In brief, a racialized form of nationalism is no more evil than a racialized form of family.

7.) Next, Walker gives us the much tossed around meme of “anti-Semitism,” which, as Joe Sobran informed us long ago, is defined as “anybody who disagrees with a Jew.” Walker accuses some strains of CN of being Anti-Semitic. Of course Walker doesn’t give us any definition of Anti-Semitic so we are left having to imagine exactly what Walker means. The simple fact however is that any reading of Church history will quickly demonstrate that throughout the European history of Christianity the Jewish people have been at loggerheads with Christian peoples. This observation was not controversial in the least until after World War II.  The fact that CN today might recognize that Jewish interests are often at loggerheads with Jewish interests is realism and not Anti-Semitism in the least. I could offer Walker several books documenting this conflict in history should he need some reading material. Contra Walker, it is not abandoning of biblical Christianity to understand that since Jewish people have historically opposed Christianity in the lands of the West that they might have an interest in continuing to do so even today.

8.) Walker accuses CN of seeking to fuse Darwin with Christianity. He makes this accusation quite without any concrete evidence. Clearly, CN cannot be called CN if it really were the case that it was seeking to import Atheistic/Evolutionist Darwinism into CN. However, having said that it is simply the case that one can believe in genetics and average IQ levels among different peoples without being Darwinian and without being “fixated on genetics.” Further, despite Walker’s accusation to the contrary, a person can believe in genetics and the reality of ethnic IQ levels and still believe human dignity is rooted in the image of God. These accusations by Walker against CN’s are guilty of the red herring logical fallacy.

9.) Walker gives us an article obsessing over the virtue of ethnic heterogeneity and so accuses Christian Nationalists of obsessing over the virtue of ethnic homogeneity.

10.) Walker then offers up another false dichotomy by writing that “Christianity grants the legitimacy of nationhood, Christianity has never required nationalism to thrive.”  The problem here is that nationhood implies Nationalism. If a nation is to be a nation it must protect its National interests. To protect one’s national interests (the chief of which is one’s own people) then one needs to, by default, embrace nationalism to thrive.

11.) Next Walker complains about the lack of evangelistic zeal and personal holiness. Keep in mind though that when the conversation is on CN one expects people to talk about CN and not evangelism and personal holiness. For my part, I quite agree that CN needs to embrace evangelism, which is one reason I encourage young Christian people to have lots of children. Being a Pastor, I am constantly encouraging my people in personal holiness.

12.) I want to be fair and say that the critique of Walker here are not critiques that need to be brought against all those who oppose CN. However, men like Walker (Pope Doug, David Bahnsen, James White, Andrew Sandlin, Joe Boot) do need to have this kind of critique brought against them. I’m sure there are many others who oppose CN who do not bring the kinds of false charges against CN as Walker brings in his article against CN.

13.) Just as Kinism before it, CN is a fine handle to use to describe a Biblical position on Christian social order. We shouldn’t let Karens like Andrew Walker dissuade us from the use of this phrase. To be sure there have been evil versions of Nationalism in world history but those Nationalisms were never Christian in their orientation, though to be sure some tried to co-op Christianity in their version of Nationalism. The Nazi use of “Positive Christianity” is one such example. However, distortions can arise from all kinds of origins just as Andrew Walker distorts CN in his article today.

14.) Walker begins to round off his article by complaining about the Church wielding political force under the banner of CN. However, CN never argues that the Church should be running the affairs of State so I’m not sure where Walker gets this idea. As far as I know all Christians applaud the necessity of personal repentance, cultural renewal, and moral leadership — just as Walker mentions.

15.) Walker next writes that Christianity has never required nationalism to survive. That may be true but that doesn’t mean that Christianity doesn’t thrive more successfully being aided by a Nationalism that finds the state favoring the Christian faith. Walker gives another false dichotomy.

16.) Walker, seemingly complains about Christians having (wielding) political force as if that ability to wield political force is inherently wrong or evil. Where in Scripture are we taught that it is evil for Christian magistrates to wield political force in favor of the Christian faith? There is nothing inherently evil about the proper use of force and Christians in the project of CN should pray that a day comes when Christian Magistrates use force as honoring unto God in a Christian nation.

17.) What is hilarious now is that Walker appeals to Natural Law to overturn Stephen Wolfe’s appeal to Natural Law for the establishing of CN. Would the real Natural Law please stand up?

18.) Walker next insists that “We should advocate for policies that promote common good, not just interests of Christians”

The problem here is that advocating for policies that promote the interests of Christians are always policies that serve the common good. Walker is involved in a false dichotomy. Again, we need to reject Andrew Walker’s boneheaded advice that would find us embracing a “Thirdwayism.” We have seen in the past what this kind of quietism and milquetoast approach achieves.

19.) Walker next argues that the Christianizing of the West will only happen by a bottom up approach, villainizing a top down approach. I quite agree that a top down approach alone will never give us a CN. However, I also thoroughly disagree that a bottom up alone approach will give us Christian culture. Change in a nation has to come from both top down and bottom up as well as from the inside out. An alone bottom up approach alone that Walker advocates will never succeed when the top down is ignored because those on the top will use the means of the state to crush an alone bottom up approach.  A label like CN which emphasized both bottom up and top down as well as inside out will communicate what all biblical Christians desire in their social order. Ideas like Walker’s only distract us from the mission.

20.) It is not too late to ignore chaps like Andrew Walker as well as those who would so water down CN. Men like Pope Doug and those several other mentioned above must be defeated. They do not belong to the work of Christian renewal.