This conversation was launched by this clip of Sen. Rick Santorum that reveals his pragmatism on abortion,
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/santorum-would-support-exceptions-to-abortion-ban/64yw0hd?cpkey=cadcf0db-9bec-40c2-9905-e572a76678b4
Emily Dorr
As of YESTERDAY, Santorum admits that he’s not really ‘pro-life’ by any standard that pretends to be connected to the teaching of the Bible.
Pragmatism is sin when applied to Christianity. Sadly, when sitting in church yesterday, nobody told you that.
These evangelicals will sell us all to the devil.
Kerry Culligan
Santorum supported pro- abortion Arlen Spector in the primary some years ago as a good Pennsylvania Republican as well. Iowa evangelicals have tried to pretend that he regrets that now, and wouldn’t do so again. Mind you, he never apologized or pretended to repent for that endorsement. No, these evangelical leaders are intentionally fooling themselves.
Ann Gardner Dorr
How can a law guarantee there will no longer be any abortions? Rich women will always be able to go to their docs and have a “D and C”. Poor women will go to the back alley and be injured or die. Or is that OK with all of you for them committing such a grievous sin? And, is there ever room for redemption after an abortion, or are they condemned forever? Are the fathers who encorage sn abortion equally condemned or are there degrees of condemnation? We outlaw murder yet it still occurs. Or is this the church wanting the gov’t to do their work? It truly is a moral issue and it is rare where laws can successfully legislate morality.
Bret L. McAtee
Sen. Santorum’s support for Arlen Specter, who was pro-choice, over a putative pro-life electable Republican proved to me that Santorum is just another whore politician.
Ann Gardner Dorr
Isn’t that a bit too harsh?
Bret L. McAtee
Observing that somebody is a whore politician because he flaunted his pro-life credentials and then turned around and supported somebody who was pro-death is a whore politician is to harsh?
No … actually, I think it is far to kind.
Referring to your previous comments Ann I would say that it is better if a few poor women to die by pursuing the death of their children then to have a law that supports baby killing so that rich and poor women alike can legally kill their children. Those who die in pursuing illegal abortions are only getting justice. What is unfair is that the rich avoid death in pursuing what would be illegal abortions in a culture where abortion was illegal.
Yes … God can forgive all sins but that doesn’t mean that sins that God has listed as crimes (such as murder) should not be enforced as crimes with the penalty that comes with those crimes.
Since laws can’t legislate morality, according to you, what say you about legalizing mass murder?
Ann Gardner Door
I guess my question has to do more with the separation of church from state and what is state business and what is church business? As you are aware, not everyone believes in the God that you do, yet they live in this country and according to our laws they are entitled to do that (believe differently than you and me). Since they don’t agree with your harsh judgments toward this issue, must they also be condemned to death in the back alley? I really wish Jesus was still with us to speak directly to this issue.
Bret L. McAtee
Ann, it is not possible to separate religion from the State. All Governments, including the current one, is beholden to and derivative of some religion. Why should I be satisfied with the State religion of Humanism that you find so superior over Christianity?
I am not advocating a Ecclesiocracy where the Church rules. I am advocating overthrowing the current pagan government that is ruled by a pagan religion that sanctions the torture and murder of the unborn.
Say, according to your standard why shouldn’t we allow for the Hindu custom (Sati) where widowed wives are burned with their deceased husbands on a funeral pyre? Why should these people be allowed their customs? After all, they don’t agree with our harsh judgments against wife killing.
You don’t seem to understand that all law order is a reflection of some God. Your God that you want to see the country subservient to allows for baby murder mine doesn’t. Why should you be preferred?
Ann Gardner Dorr
I really wish Jesus was still with us to speak directly to this issue. Hell, half the prophets and leaders in the old testament where “whores” by your standards. They had slaves, multiple wives, slept with their hand-maidens and had children by multiple women. I’m just trying to see where the Christ-like view on this whole issue would be. I just can’t be as harsh toward my fellow humans as some express here. I was also taught that to “judge” was God’s job, not mine.
Bret L. McAtee
The OT is full of the record of sin. That doesn’t mean that God approved of it. That’s pretty basic Ann.
The Christ-like view on this subject is the one found in Scripture. Those found guilty of murder by the testimony of two witnesses are to be executed.
Ann Gardner Dorr
I just can’t be as harsh toward my fellow humans as some express here. I was also taught that to “judge” was God’s job, not mine. I also wonder if you view abortion on some kind of “sin plane” and that it ranks as a higher degree of sin than say, lying on your taxes, or stealing from your employer.
Bret L. McAtee
Ann you are one of the harshest people I know in your advocacy of murder. It is incredible (more than incredible) to me that you can accuse me of harshness when I am trying to reverse a policy that has led to the torture and murder of 50 million people and the untold suffering of countless number of women who suffer from post traumatic abortion syndrome?
I must say that it is you that is the harsh one here Ann. Your cruelness and unfeeling character is grotesque in a high degree.
And the funny thing is, is that you are so deadened to reality that you find your cruelty to be the very nard of tender mercy.
Scripture clearly tells us that we are to judge righteously
Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7)
And yes … though all sin is worthy of punishment not all sin is equally grave. Torture and murder is definitely worse then not paying your taxes.
Ann Gardner Dorr
Trust me, I don’t advocate abortion.
Bret L. McAtee
Yes you do. Your advocating that it remain legal is a advocating for abortion. You can not advocate for its legality or accuse people who oppose it as being “harsh” and then soothe your conscience with some kind of “but I don’t like it” declaimer.
Ann Gardner Dorr
I am almost 60 and still confused by this issue. I will say, I lived before it was legal and there definitely were abortions. People were dying, lives of all sorts were being destroyed. My own father, Emily’s grandfather, on her Dad’s side, was not as adamant about the position of it being illegal. He talked about knowing young people who were deeply affected by choices they were forced to make before it was legal. I think he was troubled by it too. We talked about it at the time it became legal. Roe v Wade was ruled while I was in college. It was very controversial at that time and remains so today.
Bret L. McAtee
You don’t strike me as confused at all Ann. You strike me as very certain that torture and murder should be continued.
Nobody doubts that abortion happened before its legality. It’s always the case that whatever is illegal is transgressed by people even though it is illegal. That is why we have the word “crime.”
But the fact that it happened illegally Ann isn’t an argument that we should make it legal. If that were the case we would make all kinds of things legal only because some percentage of folks break laws.
The fact that some were aborted illegally, that some lives were ruined doesn’t mean we make it so millions more are aborted legally and that more lives are ruined.
What kind of reasoning is this on your part Ann?
Ann Gardner Dorr,
Sorry, Bret, that still seems self-righteous and harsh, to me. Just like you, I can go through my Bible and cherry pick verses to support my case of compassion over harsh judgement. And, by the way, you have no idea what I find superior as a form of gov’t. I was merely referring to our gov’t as it exists today. And, I am still curious. Does your religion view/belief put varying degrees on sin? And if so, is abortion the lowest, (or highest) level of sin, as you see it?
Bret L. McAtee
Self righteous? I want to see millions of people saved and you call me self righteous?
Do you realize how upside down your thought process is?
I challenge you to find any passage in Scripture that finds God supporting murder.
Abortion is not the highest sin. A higher sin would be people who advocate that abortion should remain legal. Their place in hell will be far deeper then a woman who had an abortion.
Mickey Bolwerk
Bret gets to the heart of the issue here, and I’m not sure there’s much more I can do than reiterate his points in my own words:
1) There is no area of neutrality. All law is religious in nature; it’s only a matter of whose religion is represented in the law code. Ann, whether you realized it or not, you are promoting the law code of humanism.
2) There is no basic dichotomy between the Old Testament and the New Testament. God is immutable, containing no contingency, no unexplored potentials. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. His standards of righteousness in the NT era are the same as those in the OT era.
By the way, John 7:53 – 8:11 is of highly questionable canonicity and, even if it was in the original text, your interpretation of it is not possible, by means of analogia scriptura (the analogy of Scripture; that is, that Scripture is internally consistent and any interpretation of Scripture leading to contradictions is incorrect). If we are to grant that it is Scriptural, then the only possible interpretations of this is that either:
1) Her accusers were themselves guilty of adultery, thus disqualifying them a witnesses, or
2) Christ refused to act in the role of the civil magistrate.Either way, if the woman was guilty of adultery, she deserved to die. As do abortionists.
Ann Gardner Dorr
All I know, is that if Jesus came to earth with an attitude like yours we would all be Jews today. Your approach comes across as ego driven serving only to show your superiority to others and would make it difficult for someone who is struggling to understand or believe. I thank God every day that Jesus was NOTHING like you. You can’t even listen to my argument, you are so set in your superior ways. I never once said I advocated abortion. My argument is/was with the approach and procedures that anti-abortionists have employed over the years that have done nothing but to harden people against your position. I think your movement has done more to promote the use and choice of abortion, merely by the words and tactics you have employed. Talk about cruel and grotesque. . .
Bret L. McAtee
Ann … are you sober or are you drinking while your write this?
Look Ann … I am far more concerned for the millions who have been tortured and slaughtered then I am about your feelings. You get on your pious high horse self-righteously accusing me of being “superior” and “self-righteous,” and “ego-driven,” while you advocate that we should be sensitive to murder and murderers.
I can’t listen to your argument because you have no argument. Besides, I’ve listened long enough to refute it… thoroughly.
Me thinketh the lady doth protest too much.
Good night Ann.
Please reconsider your position.
Ann Gardner Dorr
I’m praying for your soul tonight Bret.
Bret L. McAtee
Don’t bother wasting your time Ann because there is no God at the address your sending your prayers to because your God is a myth of your own imagination.
Ann Gardner Dorr
”I thank God every day that Jesus was NOTHING like you.”
David Opperman
I wonder what Bible Ann has been reading? It seems to me like Jesus was pretty confrontational. The Jews didn’t want him crucified because he turned water to wine…
Misty Richards
Ann – You accuse others of self-righteousness while arguing in favor of murderers who will have their own children sucked piece by piece out of their womb?? Do you understand what abortion is?? Its murder, Ann, plain and simple and all murderers should face the death penalty.
Ann Gardner Dorr
Well, “good morning” all. This has been very eye opening. Once I get past the name calling and viciousness of all of your anger I will contemplate the base of your argument. It seems as though you all are so used to this fight you are blind. I don’t advocate abortion, rape, murder or anything else I’ve been accused of here. But I certainly understand now why this debate has shut down and I’m fairly certain the laws will never change. You scared the heck out of me with your vitriole and I am sure you have that effect on others when it comes to this subject. Ears shut off, hearts close down and the beat goes on. I’m certain that is not what any of you want but your efforts last night were very effective in revealing to me who and what you are all about.
Mark Chambers
What’s the matter Ann? So ashamed of your idiot arguments that you retreat from them?
Ann Gardner Dorr
Not at all, just realize it pointless to discuss this subject with the Christian Taliban pushing your form of Sharia Law. First the abortionists, then the gays, then the public schools, etc, etc until you’ve formed the perfect society accorording to your version of God’s desires for humankind. Now I see where the left came up with their notions about all of you. No wonder they have been so successful in their fight against this agenda. No wonder over 45% of Americans no longer hold any spiritual beliefs. There is very little that is appealing to me coming from you that would draw me to your side of the spiritual fence.
You don’t care to discuss and persuade. You want to bully me into agreeing with your view of everything, then we can be all lovey and friends. No middle ground here. It’s all or nothing. I’ll chose nothing.
Bret L. McAtee
Ann,
You talk about the left and how it came up with their notions of conservative but you seem not to realize that you are the left.
You complain about our form of Sharia but just look at all the sharia that you’re pushing on us. You are pushing a kinder gentler humanist sharia of abortion with hand wringing, of government schools, of homosexuality. In your putative benign acceptance of these things you now are pushing them down our throats dear Ann.
You find us odd and displeasing but we are only what America was before the success of the cultural Marxism that now flows through your veins.
I wish there was a kinder way to oppose torture and murder of the unborn. I genuinely would like for there to be a nicer way of contending that homosexuality is an abomination that has throughout history always been the final indicator of a culture that is in disintegration. I’ve prayed daily that I could find a softer way of telling people that government schools are poison to the souls of our children. But these truths do not allow a “smile in your face while I disembowel you” approach.
Imagine me weeping for you and for the countless numbers like you dear sweet Ann. My tears fall first because of your hostility towards the God of the Bible and His Lord Christ. My tears then fall because I know what your end is and it saddens me beyond naming. My tears fall for all the harm you are doing in your belief system to countless numbers of people. If my weeping would convince people of their hatred and vileness I would take my weeping public and weep before the world.
But it would do no good because people like you would still come back and hurl insults at me because of my desire to protect you, and other people, and you would hurl insults at my desire to see the end of the culture of death which your worldview supports.
Believe me Ann, when I tell you, that if I thought that I could be successful by changing anything in my approach or methodology I would change but having tried every which way, I know that it is not my methodology that turns people off but it is my insistence that the God of the Bible must be kissed lest he be angry and people like you perish in the way.
With deep affection for you but with even more for the Sovereign of the universe,
I wonder if Ann would be ok with seeing a mother beat her 1 month old baby to death?