McAtee takes a look at Dr. Ian Hodge on Justification

The author of the article below is Dr. Ian Hodge. I count Dr. Hodge as a friend. We have entertained the Hodges in our home, and Dr. Hodge as filled the pulpit of the Church I serve on more than one occasion. We have had extended discussions on Federal Vision but Dr. Hodge goes further in this article in advocating a Federal Vision type of theology than I ever remember him going before.

Recently, my name was invoked in defense of this material and as such, I find it necessary to interact with this material so that it might be seen what I reject about this theology and what I accept.

The full article can be accessed here. There will be portions that I leave out in my interaction because I do not find it germane to the matter at hand.

http://biblicallandmarks.com/wpl/unbelief-or-disobedience-which-is-it/

Unbelief or Disobedience – Which Is It?
Dr. Ian Hodge

IS SALVATION BASED ON BELIEF OR ACTIONS?

Sometimes, you just have to charge into a controversy, head down, full speed ahead. And taking on a topic that has been debated for 2,000 years and still remains a dividing line among the Christian community, is asking for trouble. But, here goes. . . .

It is suggested that the Reformation “solved” the problem of salvation: faith or works. One or the other. Take your pick, choose sides, and do battle. There is, apparently, no compromise. Luther tried to simplify the problem by suggesting that the book of James did not belong in the canon of Scripture for it went against his idea of salvation by faith alone.

Dr. Hodge begins by subtly admitting that whatever he is going to say is a “asking for trouble.” Thus, he won’t be surprised when trouble is found.

The first thing we want to note here is the necessity to distinguish between salvation and justification. Scripture teaches that we are justified apart from works of the law (hence, Faith alone). Justification is one constituent component in the ordo salutis (order of salvation). It is proper, technically speaking, to say we are “justified by faith alone,” but when salvation as a whole is considered we insist that good works (sanctification) are the necessary consequence of faith alone justification. This is why we can say that justification is by faith alone but never by a faith that is alone. This distinction between justification as one component of the whole complex that is salvation and salvation, considered in toto is a distinction we will have need to keep our eye on as we move through Dr. Hodge’s essay.

“After making the statement that Luther used so effectively from Rom. 3:28, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law”, the writer, Paul goes on to point out that both the circumcised and the uncircumcised are to be justified through faith. But . . . he does not stop there. St. Paul then makes this often neglected statement in Rom. 3:31 (from the Wycliffe NT translation).

Destroy we therefore the law by faith? God forbid [Far be it]; but we stablish the law

Remember the old song, “Love and Marriage”? I forget who sang it. But the punch line said “you can’t have one without the other.” And so it is with faith and works, according to the Apostle Paul AND James.

James says the same thing as Paul when he insists that justification is NOT by faith alone. This is the ONLY time in the Bible when these two words — faith alone — are used together. They are NEVER used by St. Paul this way, even in Rom. 3:28.”

St. Paul does indeed establish the law and St. Paul would agree that faith and works go together like love and marriage. However, for St. Paul and St. James the faith that propels our works presupposes a faith that is alone resting in Christ for all. One might say that faith’s proper work in justification is resting in Christ’s works for us and imputed to us while faith’s proper work in sanctification is to work so as to increasingly become what we have freely been declared to be in Christ Jesus. However, the proper work of faith in sanctification presupposes the a-priori proper work of a justifying faith which rests in Christ alone. (It should be said here that we are speaking of logical a-priori and not a chronological a-priori.)

Dr. Hodge then abstracts James 2:24 from its context to make it suggest that justification is not by faith alone.

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

The problem with Dr. Hodge’s reasoning here is that St. James appeal to Abraham as his exemplar of the one who is justified by his works is not teaching what Dr. Hodge seems to be suggesting that St. James is teaching. St. James is not teaching that Abraham’s works contributed to his righteousness before God. St. James is not teaching that the works of Jesus for Abraham were not sufficient for Abraham’s status as “just.” St. James is not teaching that Abraham’s works and Jesus’s works combined together for Abraham were the ground of Abraham’s justification. St. James is teaching that the works of Abraham justified his justification.

If we avoid abstracting this James text from its largest Biblical context we learn that in Genesis 15 Abraham, well before the offering of Isaac, to which St. James appeals in chapter 2, was already justified. St. James appeals to the events of Genesis 22 where Abraham reveals his faith through his obedience. In Chapter 2 James is using the word “justified,” in the sense of “demonstration.” In Luke 7:35 Jesus uses the same verb “justified” as James uses in 2:21. In Luke 7 we read, “wisdom is justified by her children.” In the Luke passage the word “justified” is not being used to mean “to be reconciled to God” but rather it is used to demonstrate the truth of a prior claim. Just so in James 2. Just as true wisdom in Luke 7 is demonstrated by its fruit, Abraham’s claim to faith is justified by his obedience in offering up Isaac. If we are careful not to abstract from the James 2 text, we see that this is exactly the point of the text. The James 2 text is dealing with the issue of how justification is demonstrated, not with how a man is reconciled to God. So, we would say that in James what is being dealt with is how a man’s justification is seen as justified – demonstrated (by works) whereas for Paul in Romans 3 what is being dealt with is how a man’s person is justified (by faith alone).

Now combine what Paul says in Romans 4,

“But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly his faith is accounted for righteousness.”

And it is only an abstractionism that could find James 2, in contradiction to Romans 4, saying that God only justifies the godly who are working.

It is a mark of abstractionism that pulls things out of its context then misreads the meaning of the words. Paul and James can NEVER be opposed to one another. And here’s the reason why. “For it is not merely the hearers of Torah whom God considers righteous; rather, it is the doers of what Torah says who will be made righteous in God’s sight.” Here’s the ESV version of the same passage: “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” Doers of the law justifified! Does that sound familiar? It should, because it’s almost exactly the same words used in James’s letter. Except these words were written by St. Paul in the same book of Romans that people like to quote “faith alone” from. The only problem is that if you read Romans 3:8 as a faith “alone” idea, you’ve abstracted the verse from its context and given it a meaning that Paul could never have intended. Why? Because he’s already laid down the principle that it is doers of the law who will be made righteous.

The problem here with Dr. Hodge’s reasoning is that what the Torah requires above all else is faith alone in Christ.

St. Paul is not saying in Romans 2 that people could possibly be “enough doers of the law” that they could achieve self justification. The fact that those outside the law (and in Romans 2 it is Gentiles who are being referenced) are responsible to be “doers of the law,” does not mean that they are therefore able to be justified by doing the law.

When Dr. Hodge insists that it is doers of the law who will be made righteous, in contradiction of the Biblical principle of justification by faith alone, he abstracts the text from the corpus of all of Scripture. The only way that any of us can be doers of the law is to rest in Christ alone who has done the law for us and imputed to us His law doing righteousness so that we are now reckoned as “doers of the law,” who then as doers of the law increasingly become what we have been freely declared to be.

When Paul says we are justified by faith, an obvious question might be this one. “Does any old faith save us?” James gives us a clear answer. “No. Only the kind of faith which has works attached to it.” As Robert Johnson points out in his Banner of Truth commentary on James,

“To him who asks, ‘Is it faith that justifies. Or works?’ Paul replies, ‘Faith alone (sic) justifies, without works.’ To him who, knowing and believing this, asks further, ‘But does all faith justify?’ James answers, ‘ Faith alone, without works does not justify.’ — for an inoperative faith is dead, powerless, unprofitable. Both statements, looked at in connection with the questions they are respectively meant to answer, are true, and both of vast important. Faith alone justifies, but not the faith which is alone.”

We quite agree here with both Dr. Johnson and Dr. Hodge when they imply that dead faith can not justify. (However, I’ve always thought that dead faith is a bit oxymoronic since a “dead faith,” is a no thing.)

An interesting juxtaposition of unbelief and disobedience is given in Hebrews 3:18-19. “And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.”

That makes it pretty clear. They are interchangeable concepts. Inseparable.

So it is not faith OR works, as both Paul and James are made to say. It is both.

And contemporary Christianity’s emphasis on faith alone at the expense of works indicates how far Christian theology has removed itself from clear biblical teaching.

First, in terms of the Hebrews passage we would say that they were disobedient precisely because of their unbelief. Their disobedience was the natural consequence of their unbelief.

Faith and works are interdependent and certainly imply one another in the way I have spoken of but to say that they are interchangeable concepts so that “faith alone,” could be as easily be made to say “works alone,” is not helpful. If those two words were exactly synonymous there would be no need for one of the words. I quite agree that it is both faith and works but each in their proper place. Faith does its proper work in justification when it rests in Christ alone and faith does its proper work in sanctification when it works out salvation in fear and trembling.

Consider this: The Greek philosophers debated over whether ultimate reality was mind or matter. Rationalism (mind) or empiricism (the senses) is how this played out in the post-Reformation period. As a result, the common understanding of the word “faith” in Scripture is that it is a cognitive activity. Thus, if you can give mental and verbal assent to a series of verbal propositions, you can consider yourself a Christian because that is all that is needed to be justified. Respond to the alter call, repeat the Sinner’s Prayer, say ‘amen’ to a series of propositions, and you are saved. Living a godly life, good works they are called, are not necessary for justification. These come after justification but have no meritorious effect in justification.

With this statement Dr. Hodge seemingly overthrows the whole Reformation and insists that we are not saved by faith alone but are only saved by Christ’s work for us combined with our works. This is most unfortunate.

Dr. Hodge seems to misunderstand the nature of mental assent. If someone genuinely mentally assents to the truth of the Gospel the consequence is the beginning of living a godly life. Where there is no godly life there is either no understanding of the truth or no mental assent and the course of action that one must take with such a person is to take them back to the truth of the Gospel in search of a mental assent that demonstrates its genuineness.

Faith is a cognitive activity though it always more than a cognitive activity. Orthodoxy (right faith) drives orthopraxy (right practice). There can be no right practice where there is no right faith.

Now, I agree with Dr. Hodge that mechanistic approaches to faith are suspect, however, having said that the problem isn’t with faith as being cognitive, but rather the problem is the mechanistic approach to securing faith.

That’s not quite how St. Paul puts it in his letter to the Romans. And for good reason. Because if you start in the Old Testament, you never get the idea that justification is merely a mental activity exercise. St. Paul, raised in the Old Testament tradition, knowing this, is not about to let a Greek neopolatonic concept of mind/matter become the controlling principle for understanding biblical faith. And this is the basis of his statements, first in Romans 2:3 and then in Romans 3:31. And in between those two statements you have his words in 3:28. So do not take his words there out of context. The law is not an add-on to faith alone. It is an integrated component, which is why “disobedience” and “belief” are interchangeable for the writer of Hebrews.

There is nothing neo-platonic in faith alone. Paul supports it Romans 3-5. Faith alone is a Scriptural principle that is supported in the book of Galatians. Paul appeals to faith alone by appealing to the Old Testament saints who were justified by faith alone. It looks to me that Dr. Hodge is either departing from the Reformed faith in this article or else he is seeking to redefine the Reformed faith.

And, the idea that justification is our mental activity is something that no knowledgeable person in the Reformed faith has ever advocated. Justification is not what we think or do. Justification is not about our mental activity nor about our combing our works with Christ’s works in order to be reconciled to God. Justification is God’s work whereby He imputes the righteousness of Christ to sinners who have not the righteousness required in order to be God’s friend. Further, a full orbed understanding of justification requires more than a consideration of subjective justification (which seems to be Dr. Hodge’s only consideration) but only requires a consideration of objective justification. When we consider that we, as God’s people, were objectively justified when Christ was crucified and resurrected we realize that subjective justification can’t include our performative works in any way.

Faith means action — not just intellectual assent. That’s the biblical version of faith, not the Greek version superimposed over Scripture.

Faith does mean action. But action does not result without thought. Orthopraxy presupposes orthodoxy.

In other words, Luther introduced a Greek concept of faith when he added the word “alone” to St. Paul’s words in Romans. And that neoplatonic concept has played absolute havoc with Christianity ever since.

A Trentian Roman Catholic could not have said it better.

Of course such a statement is Baloney.

“It is in this context that we need to understand R.J. Rushdoony’s call back to the law of God — the Torah — as the way of necessary godly living. It is not an option. It is the mark of the Christian without which, he will not be saved.”

Godly living is most certainly necessary but necessary in it’s proper place. The full blown Pelagian would agree that Godly living is necessary. So, nobody but the antinomian denies that Godly living is necessary. But the answer to the antinomian is not neonomianism or semi-pelagianism or covenantal moralism or legalism. The answer to anti-nomianism is a proper understanding of the third use of the law in the Christian’s life.

And in terms of Rushdoony we should listen to what RJR had to say on justification,

“In any court of law, to be transferred from legal guilt to legal righteousness is a tremendous fact of life. It is totally so in God’s supreme court of law and life. Justification by faith is thus a fact of life because it is an act of God’s absolute law court.”

Note that RJR — the man who properly emphasized the necessity for Christians to honor God’s Law-Word — disagrees with Hodge here when he observes that justification is an act of God’s absolute law court. RJR disagrees with Hodge when RJR writes about being transferred from legal guilt to legal righteousness. RJR never taught that we are justified by faith plus our works though he did teach that salvation includes our grace given and Spirit driven obedience — an obedience that is the consequence of justification and not causative of justification.

Not sure? Listen to the Second Person of the Trinity speak with authority:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”[1]

And this passage proves what? Does Dr. Hodge really believe that those who affirm justification by faith alone don’t also affirm Jesus words here?

Now in the process of understanding salvation, it is tempting to argue that faith and works are opposites rather than complementaries. In the former view, works are essential and meritorious. In the latter view, works are essential, but they are not meritorious, unless they are the works produced by trusting God (faith).

Faith and works are complementaries but not in the way that Dr. Hodge advances in this article.

In my estimation this last paragraph reveals that there is some kind of contradictory thinking going on here. I would note here that R. L. Dabney taught that even our good works must be imputed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ in order to be acceptable. If that is true I’m not sure how our works could ever be meritorious in the sense that they contribute to our justification.

Finally in terms of abstractionism, I would recommend reading Dabney on his chapter title “Abstractionists,” in his Vol. IV of his works. One can find it online.

Author: jetbrane

I am a Pastor of a small Church in Mid-Michigan who delights in my family, my congregation and my calling. I am postmillennial in my eschatology. Paedo-Calvinist Covenantal in my Christianity Reformed in my Soteriology Presuppositional in my apologetics Familialist in my family theology Agrarian in my regional community social order belief Christianity creates culture and so Christendom in my national social order belief Mythic-Poetic / Grammatical Historical in my Hermeneutic Pre-modern, Medieval, & Feudal before Enlightenment, modernity, & postmodern Reconstructionist / Theonomic in my Worldview One part paleo-conservative / one part micro Libertarian in my politics Systematic and Biblical theology need one another but Systematics has pride of place Some of my favorite authors, Augustine, Turretin, Calvin, Tolkien, Chesterton, Nock, Tozer, Dabney, Bavinck, Wodehouse, Rushdoony, Bahnsen, Schaeffer, C. Van Til, H. Van Til, G. H. Clark, C. Dawson, H. Berman, R. Nash, C. G. Singer, R. Kipling, G. North, J. Edwards, S. Foote, F. Hayek, O. Guiness, J. Witte, M. Rothbard, Clyde Wilson, Mencken, Lasch, Postman, Gatto, T. Boston, Thomas Brooks, Terry Brooks, C. Hodge, J. Calhoun, Llyod-Jones, T. Sowell, A. McClaren, M. Muggeridge, C. F. H. Henry, F. Swarz, M. Henry, G. Marten, P. Schaff, T. S. Elliott, K. Van Hoozer, K. Gentry, etc. My passion is to write in such a way that the Lord Christ might be pleased. It is my hope that people will be challenged to reconsider what are considered the givens of the current culture. Your biggest help to me dear reader will be to often remind me that God is Sovereign and that all that is, is because it pleases him.

17 thoughts on “McAtee takes a look at Dr. Ian Hodge on Justification”

  1. Ian Hodge seems to define faith as works flowing from intellectual assent, but this is all wrong. Faith is the new man. Faith is the old man raising from the dead and unto new life in Christ Jesus. Faith is that gift of God which involves a new heart/a new spirit. Faith is being born again and unless a man is born again, unless a man has been given the gift of God which is known as faith, he will not see the Kingdom of God. Intellectual assent, otherwise known as belief, arises out of the new man, otherwise known as faith, which assent leads to actions conforming to said belief according to the new man in Christ Jesus. From whence does faith come but from the justifying work of Christ? We are justified by works, this is true, but they are the works of Christ which allowed for our justification that we might be declared righteous in the sight of God. Having been justified, we are given life in the Spirit and accepted before the Father who has gifted us with His salvation. The work of God does not end at salvation, but continues on in the life of the Christian. This work is known as sanctification. Where you see the Christian working out his salvation, it is precisely because he has already been given new life in order to be enabled unto works, which works must be attributed to God even as Christians are considered His workmanship. The waters are so muddied by those who do not consider basic definitions but rather use words interchangeably as though meaning were of the least importance.

  2. Sometimes, you just have to charge into a controversy, head down, full speed ahead.

    Where quite often the head meets a sharp object. Best to look where you’re going.

    It is suggested that the Reformation “solved” the problem of salvation: faith or works.

    Bret rightly notes and then delineates the distinction between salvation and justification that the Reformed have always drawn. To that I’ll simply that add that in a discussion of the doctrine of justification, it is a faux pas that is inexcusable.

    James says the same thing as Paul when he insists that justification is NOT by faith alone. This is the ONLY time in the Bible when these two words — faith alone — are used together. They are NEVER used by St. Paul this way, even in Rom. 3:28.”

    James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

    Not only are Paul and James not saying the same thing, they are not even talking about the same thing.
    Justified
    dikaioo?
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to render righteous or such as he ought to be
    2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
    3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1342

    The sense of justification in James is horizontal. It is synonymous with vindication. Faith is evidenced by the works that demonstrate it. The Christian is vindicated in his claim to saving faith by a life of obedience to the commands of the One he claims to trust. Justification in James is in the second sense in the definition given above. To show or exhibit. Works are demonstrative. That is why James says show me. Show me your faith without the works and I will show you my faith by my works. So in theological terms the accent in James is on the “probative” character of good works. They serve as proof; they attest to ones justified condition.

    Justification in the Pauline epistles is vertical dealing with the judicially constitutive and declarative character of justification. God declares and constitutes men justified on the basis of their faith in Christ. Paul is dealing with how men obtain a right standing before God. Paul says works do not merit justification before God while James says works vindicate a person’s claim to faith. Man is justified by faith alone (Paul), but it is not a faith that is alone (James). Faith works!! Paul does say the same thing as James in Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

    It is a mark of abstractionism that pulls things out of its context then misreads the meaning of the words.

    Though no less egregious than misunderstanding what one reads whether in or out of context, which is exactly what Dr Hodge has done.

    it is doers of the law who will be made righteous.

    Yes indeed. But to suggest that it is the doing that justifies simply doesn’t follow. How much must one do? Paul tells us in Rom 8:6-7, 1Cor 2:14 that the natural man cannot obey the law. What? Does Dr Hodge think God regenerates the unjustified that they might work for their justification? Does he imagine the unjustified can do anything positive?

    “Faith alone justifies, but not the faith which is alone.”

    If this is all that Dr Hodge means to say one wonders why he has even written? This is nothing that is not affirmed by any consistently Reformed theologian.

    “An interesting juxtaposition of unbelief and disobedience is given in Hebrews 3:18-19. “And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.”

    That makes it pretty clear. They are interchangeable concepts. Inseparable.”.

    Here Dr Hodge commits a fallacy of category. Belief and obedience are not interchangeable. Belief is one thing and obedience quite another though in true saving faith they are most certainly inseparable.

    So it is not faith OR works, as both Paul and James are made to say. It is both.

    Clearly Dr Hodge, in saying that justification is accomplished by faith and works, is granting meritorious status to works. What other conclusion is there? To say that faith without works is no faith at all and does not justify is entirely different than saying justification is by faith and works. The former is Reformed orthodoxy and the latter damnable heresy. Is Dr Hodge serious? Does he know what he’s saying or is he (hopefully) struggling to express himself properly?

    And contemporary Christianity’s emphasis on faith alone at the expense of works indicates how far Christian theology has removed itself from clear biblical teaching.

    Recognizing the antinomian condition of cotemporary Christianity does not require that one make works a meritorious aspect of justification. Is Hodge crossing the Tiber with Stellman?

    (snip)……..Living a godly life, good works they are called, are not necessary for justification. These come after justification but have no meritorious effect in justification.

    Bret’s correct. Worded the way Dr Hodge has worded things is a rejection of the Reformed doctrine of JBF.

    That’s not quite how St. Paul puts it in his letter to the Romans. And for good reason. Because if you start in the Old Testament, you never get the idea that justification is merely a mental activity exercise.

    So attacking Sola Fide is now to be accompanied by an attack on Solus Christos? Enough is enough. Hodge appears hopelessly confused. Justification is not merely a mental activity because justification is not an activity on the part of man at all. Justification is the work of Christ alone, accomplished by the shedding of his blood and so effected outside of us, irrespective of what we are, dependent only upon the decision of God. It has nothing to do with anything I do physically or mentally. Not so according to Hodge.

    Dr Hodge seems to use belief, obedience and faith (and evidently justification as seen above) interchangeably and tells us that faith, which is belief, must be accompanied by works. And if one is to take him at his word, believing and doing are not evidences of justification but dual instruments of accomplishment.

    Hodges problem is ontological. Faith is not an activity but a condition of being. Belief and works–mental and physical activities, are both the effects of faith. Actions, whether mental or physical proceed from an antecedent condition. Believing in Christ and obeying the commands of Christ are not faith but actions proceeding from it. They reflect the regenerate (faith) condition of the justified individual. This is why James says I will show you my faith by my works. It is why Paul can speak of faith working through love. It is why the author of Hebrews can speak to the inseparable nature of disobedience and unbelief. All of the above, whether positive or negative, are not causative but reflective. They evidence the condition of the individual. Faith is not something that we do. Faith is a condition that is evidenced by what is done. Regenerate, justified men believe the words of Christ and obey the commands of Christ, because that’s what faith does. The Westminster Divines understood it well.

    XI
    I. Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies;
    • not by infusing righteousness into them, but
    • by pardoning their sins,
    • by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;
    • not for any thing wrought in them,
    • [not for] anything done by them, but
    • for Christ’s sake alone;
    • nor by imputing faith itself,
    • [nor by imputing] the act of believing, or
    • [nor by imputing] any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but
    • by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,
    • they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith;
    • which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

    XIV
    I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word, by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.
    II. By this faith, a Christian
    • believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God Himself speaking therein;
    • acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains;
    • yields obedience to the commands,
    • trembles at the threatenings,
    • embraces the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.
    But the principal acts of saving faith are
    • accepting,
    • receiving,
    • resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life

    1. You know Bret, the funny thing is I preached on this very issue in your church when I expounded Romans 3 and Romans 7. There, I very clearly delineated between what I called the “Two Torahs” – the one of works and the one of faith. And you said not a word against that exposition.

      Here’s my Romans 3: http://biblicallandmarks.com/wpl/foundation-of-western-culture/

      And here’s my Romans 7: http://biblicallandmarks.com/wpl/the-two-torahs/

      The man who wrote this:
      Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

      Also wrote this:
      Rom 3: 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one–who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

      Which “law” is he referring to in v. 31? Paul very clearly has in mind “two Torah’s” one of works, and one of faith.

      All I’m doing is suggesting that BOTH Paul and James are referring to “the law of Faith” and not “the law of works” when they say justification is by works.

      Then the question becomes: is it possible to have “law of faith” as a necessary condition but which is not meritorious? You have my answer.

      Mark, you misrepresent my position when you say I am “granting meritorious status to works.”

      Bret, I miss our fellowship.

      1. Ian,

        You preached twice in the Church I serve. The first time I was on holiday. The second time I was there but was just coming off my daughter’s wedding and a exhausting weekend. You will forgive me if I wasn’t completely there mentally the second time you preached.

      2. Also the word “law” has so many different shades of meaning that I think one must be careful before one attaches to much significance to a repeated use of that word in different places.

        I think one key here is your setting up justification, as used by the bad guys, as being a “mental activity,” when justification is not a mental activity. Then you contrast it to a justification which is obedience. Justification is neither a mental activity nor is it our obedience.

        And yes Ian, we miss you and Jesse as well.

      3. All I’m doing is suggesting that BOTH Paul and James are referring to “the law of Faith” and not “the law of works” when they say justification is by works.

        Then the question becomes: is it possible to have “law of faith” as a necessary condition but which is not meritorious? You have my answer.

        But Paul and James are not talking about the same thing. Paul is talking about the kind of justification that justifies our persons while James is talking about the kind of justification that justifies our confession.

        And, long before I met you, I went round and round with the FV folks insisting that works are a necessary consequence to justification but not a necessary non meritorious condition.

        After all … what does a necessary non meritorious condition look like? If we don’t have the necessary condition then we certainly don’t merit justification it would seem. The phrase “non necessary condition,” strikes me as oxymoronic since if you don’t have the condition you don’t have justification.

  3. Ian you so conflate and confuse terms one wonders exactly what it is you’re trying to say. Your suggestion that “justification is not merely a mental activity” is absurd at best and heretical if you actually believe that man has anything at all to do with his justification.

    Works are indeed a necessary condition of faith as is belief. But that hardly warrants your agonizingly confused terminology. This is not complicated. Faith without works is dead. You have added nothing to that simple statement. Works are to faith what barking and a wagging tail is to the dog. Barking and wagging is what dogs do. They cannot not do them. Men who are of the faith obey because it is what they are. That is all there is to it.

  4. “Mark, you misrepresent my position when you say I am “granting meritorious status to works.”

    “So it is not faith OR works, as both Paul and James are made to say. It is both.”

    Ian if you don’t see works as meritorious it is you that have misrepresented yourself. You still, in spite of the criticisms stated here, do not understand your error. You are the one discussing justification Ian. This IS about justification is it not? And it is you that give us the quote above that justification “is not faith OR works, it is both”. Justification is, according your own words Ian, faith and works. And having said that you include the absolutely incredible statement I quoted in my previous post that justification (justification mind you) is not merely mental assent. WHAT? You DO understand the English language do you not? If you say that justification is not ‘merely’ mental activity, and if you understand what you’re saying, then justification, not being merely mental activity, is that plus something else. And what would that something else be in a discussion where your emphasis is on works? Do you have any idea what you’re saying? If you are taken at your word then one must conclude that you see the mental activity (of which justification is not merely) as faith, and works as the additional factor. Faith and works.

    Frankly I don’t think you know what faith is. You use the word just as you use the word works as if it is something we do. You use it as if it was synonymous with belief. But faith is not something we do Ian. Faith is a condition of being; faith is what we are. Faith believes and faith obeys. So it is not faith and works or faith plus works, it is faith therefore works.

  5. What is so complicated about a working faith?? It isn’t complicated, but men must try to steal glory from God by claiming that salvation is attributed to them in some way. How long will it be before Ian is in Rome?

  6. It is not that “God only justifies the godly who are working;” God works the godly, who are justified.”

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