Chit Chat With The Two Kingdom Guys

Actually Rom 2 argues for a common value system amongst all peoples(reflection of the imago dei).

And Romans 1 argues that the common value system is suppressed in unrighteousness among the peoples who changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made by man. You cannot appeal to Romans 2 in such a way that it contradicts Romans 1.

The error occurs not in that a culture reflects what people think about God, The problem occurs when a group/tribe becomes too particular(read cultic) in it’s civil application of their beliefs about their God.(i.e. christendom, emperor’s cult, islamists, theocrats of any particular stripe) or when it deifies it’s political beliefs or leaders.

Including when it deifies the belief that no god should be the god of the public square. All tribes are equally particular in their civil application of their beliefs about God. (i.e. — Humanismdom, Islamdom, Christendom, Pluralismdom etc.). All cultures have a sense of the ‘taboo’ thus revealing that their culture is an expression of the cultic religious system. All culture are organized cultically. The attempt to have a non-cultic culture would result in a cultic culture that is an expression of the non-cultic cult.

We can’t build a common realm that is sanitized of the gods. but God did ,build a common realm that is sanitized of the gods. we just struggle with confusing what God did with what we want(see Babel).

That is just an assertion. I see nowhere in Scripture where God commands a common realm that is sanitized of all the gods including himself. If such a realm existed who would make sure that the realm stayed sanitized? Wouldn’t that entity that was in charge of making sure the non god realm remained sanitized of the gods then become the God of the realm policing the other gods from going to far? Certainly it would, and further it would become a cultic expression which in turn would create a culture.

Of course this would be called pluralism which is a culture in defiance of the the One King Jesus who is over all.

“We must oppose the adherents of other systems pressing for the advance of their gods in the putatively common realm and push for secularism in culture.


And behold, Secularism becomes the cult which creates the culture.

And of course since Secularism is a no thing it will be defined by as Secularism by those religious adherents who are smart enough to realize that they can’t get their cult in by its proper name and so they will push it under the name of ‘secularism.’ This is what Humanism, with such genius, has done incrementally in this country for generations.

Hmm, actually the God of scripture takes credit for and exhorts obedience toward that state. In fact the only time that gets real thorny for the christian is when the state gets cultic in a particular manner (emperor’s cult)

Actually the God of Scripture often commends those who rise up against tyranny. We must read all the Scriptures and not simply wrench Romans 13 out of context of the whole of Scripture. If you want to some good reads on this I would advise Rutherford’s ‘Lex Rex,’ or Vindcae Contra Tyrannos, or George Buchanan’s De Jure Regni Apud Scotos’ for starters.

I am confident that disobedience to the State when it positions itself as God in significant non-cultic realms (like deciding some people group are sub-human and are to be liquidated) is biblical reason for obedience to God rather then men.

Well, it seems i’m not the only one susceptible to assertions, or ideology that trumps, in this case, Rom 13.

Not only are you the only one susceptible to assertions, and ideology that trumps reality, but in this case you are the only one who is significantly mishandling Romans 13.

And I thought God handled Babel quite well.

Absolutely! Just like in using Ehud he overthrew the Tyrant quite well as well. See these other links for posts on Christians resistance.

More On Samuel Huntington and Fouad Ajami

Can You Imagine Charles Martel Doing This?

1865 & 2009

God can work directly in overthrowing tyrants as He did at Babel or He can work indirectly in overthrowing tyrants as he did with Ehud and others. Why even, John The Baptist got involved in the non-cultic realm when he chastened Herod for his adultery. Apparently John the Baptist wasn’t infected with R2Kt virus.

But don’t you see, you certainly assert it, the spirit of the age is cultic, it seeks to take the common and make it holy, the secular and make it sacred, in service of which cult is of no import. What is worldly activity if not the absentmindedness of another city? a heavenly city where there is one who renders ultimate judgement. The spirit of this age imbibes of this age as if there were no other. It’s not that their isn’t or wont be a theocratic city, it’s just that it isn’t rightly exercised in this age outside of the word preached and the sacraments rightly administered.

Christ is Lord over all and as such when all is handled as unto Him all is Holy. Now, I still quite insist that there remains a ‘Holy of the Holy’ as it were, located in the cult proper (Word and Sacrament) but as God’s people bring to bear the authority of Christ over all that Christ has dominion over all is Holy unto Him. You would divorce sacred from putatively secular by compartmentalizing between the two and yet even those who are at the height of secularity, must kiss the Son lest He be angry and they perish in the way.

The Spirit of this age tries to pretend that the age to come isn’t impinging upon the Spirit of this age and that the Spirit of this age is doomed for the full realization of the defeat it has already suffered in principle. The Spirit of the age does all it can to deny the real impact that the age to come has upon what it once called its domain, and it raises up people even within the Church to defend its existence.

There is a Theocratic city to come but we must not under-realize our eschatology and forget that there is a Theocratic city that is now. Christ has come. Christ brought His Kingdom. Christ bound the Strong man. The Theocratic city now rules. Our living and advocacy in every area of life should reflect hegemony of our Theocratic King.

By believing in Him who He sent, and living their lives quietly, working with their hands, and being obedient to those in authority over them.

By being obedient to Him in every area. By not only praying ‘Thy Kingdom Come’ but also by realizing that with the ongoing coming of His already present Kingdom opposing Kingdoms must crumble. By resolving that when appropriate they must obey God rather then man. By being willing to endure a theology of the Cross as a result of the opposition to pursuing the glory of God in every area of life — even when those inflicting the persecution are fellow Christians.

More assertion, although I’ll agree that their is no legitimate cultic city this side of glory except as it exists spiritually and in tension within the redeemed community.

Not an assertion. Show me one organized culture in history that has been neutral.

Author: jetbrane

I am a Pastor of a small Church in Mid-Michigan who delights in my family, my congregation and my calling. I am postmillennial in my eschatology. Paedo-Calvinist Covenantal in my Christianity Reformed in my Soteriology Presuppositional in my apologetics Familialist in my family theology Agrarian in my regional community social order belief Christianity creates culture and so Christendom in my national social order belief Mythic-Poetic / Grammatical Historical in my Hermeneutic Pre-modern, Medieval, & Feudal before Enlightenment, modernity, & postmodern Reconstructionist / Theonomic in my Worldview One part paleo-conservative / one part micro Libertarian in my politics Systematic and Biblical theology need one another but Systematics has pride of place Some of my favorite authors, Augustine, Turretin, Calvin, Tolkien, Chesterton, Nock, Tozer, Dabney, Bavinck, Wodehouse, Rushdoony, Bahnsen, Schaeffer, C. Van Til, H. Van Til, G. H. Clark, C. Dawson, H. Berman, R. Nash, C. G. Singer, R. Kipling, G. North, J. Edwards, S. Foote, F. Hayek, O. Guiness, J. Witte, M. Rothbard, Clyde Wilson, Mencken, Lasch, Postman, Gatto, T. Boston, Thomas Brooks, Terry Brooks, C. Hodge, J. Calhoun, Llyod-Jones, T. Sowell, A. McClaren, M. Muggeridge, C. F. H. Henry, F. Swarz, M. Henry, G. Marten, P. Schaff, T. S. Elliott, K. Van Hoozer, K. Gentry, etc. My passion is to write in such a way that the Lord Christ might be pleased. It is my hope that people will be challenged to reconsider what are considered the givens of the current culture. Your biggest help to me dear reader will be to often remind me that God is Sovereign and that all that is, is because it pleases him.

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