Godfrey Disembowels Van Drunnen & Quite Without Realizing It Enervates R2K

This below linked rebuttal of Dr. Van Drunnen by Dr. Godfrey is uneven and isn’t everything I might want it to be but it is enough to unravel the whole R2K project.

In this conversation / interview with Robert Godfrey, David Van Drunnen’s R2K ideas were exposed, not merely as weak, but as fatuous. Godfrey really bored in on Van Drunnen’s claim that there is no such thing as a Christian family and exposed Van Drunnen’s weakness in this claim.

Listen to Godfrey here,

“Is the family a common institution in every way? It seems to me that the Bible say’s “no, it is not a common institution in every way.” If it were a common institution in every way how could the Apostle Paul talk about the children of belivers as ‘holy?'” Children, it seems to me, must be seen on a Two Kingdoms approach, as Dr. VanDrunnen expresses it as a cultural product of a common grace institution, and cultural products of common grace institution are never taken over into the new heavens and the new earth.”

Now, keep in mind that if Van Drunnen’s R2K fails at any point along the line of everything the man says is common (in this case family) Van Drunnen’s whole project fails and Godfrey has completely, by a withering enfilade of probing unanswerable questions, revealed the failure of the R2K project by leveraging the issue of family.

The reason that the whole project fails is if anything outside the Church is considered distinctly Christian then there is then no stopping point. If families can be considered Christian families then there is no reason to say that, “well, one way a Christian family is distinctly Christian is by offering Christian Education.” If there is such a thing as Christian family then one reason why must be christian Education and if Christian families are made, in part, by Christian education, then R2K fails again since the whole premise of R2K is that Family, Education, Law, Politics, Arts, Civil-Social, etc. can never be distinctly Christian but are neutral and so common.

Van Drunenn sought to prove too much with his R2K project and with Godfrey’s exposure of the emptiness of VanDrunnen’s position on Christian family in relation to R2K Godfrey (perhaps without intent) destroyed the whole R2K project for those with eyes to see.

It seems upon reflection that Van Drunnen and the R2K boys have made the mirror opposite error of old Rome. Old Rome said that if anything was to be Holy it had to come inside the Church. Van Drunnen and the R2K punch drinkers are saying that nothing is Holy except the Church therefore everything is outside the Kingdom of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agwVVqiAr9A&fbclid=IwAR3CnpiO9tG0bkv-mZo48J4dHV31N84hEU0dpDqRO73kSm_upEJHJZEa6CA

 

Communism Remains

“I am talking about the Communism of Leon Trotsky that is based upon hatred for Christianity. Remember that Communism and Christianity can never live in the same atmosphere. Communism is older than Christianity. It is the curse of the ages. It hounded and persecuted the Savior during His earthly ministry, inspired His crucifixion, derided His dying agony, and then gambled for His garments at the foot of the cross; and has spent more than 1900 years trying to destroy Christianity and everything based on Christian principles. The alien minded communistic enemies of Christianity and their stooges are trying to get control of the press of this country… They are trying to take over the radio. Listen to their lying broadcasts in broken English and you can almost smell them. They are now trying to take over the Motion Picture industry, and howl to high heaven when our Committee on un-American Activities propose to investigate them. They want to spread their un-American propaganda, as well as their loathsome, lying, immoral, anti-Christian filth before the eyes of your children in every community in America.”

John Rankin (D) — Mississippi US Congressman
Chairman — House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC)
Speech on the floor of the US Congress — 1945


Was Rankin correct?

1.) Communism does indeed hate Christianity.

Communism embraces a Atheistic-Materialistic Worldview wherein the State is God and in the State man lives and moves and has his being.

2.) Communism and Christianity indeed can’t live in the same atmosphere.

Wherever either of these exist in their purer forms they will always push out the other. Christianity, when it is faithful will destroy Communism and Communism where it is faithful will destroy Christianity. Neither will allow the presence of the other for where the other is allowed to exist it threatens the very existence of the other.

3.) Communism was largely and disproportionately populated by the descendants of that Edomite / Khazar tribe who persecuted Christ.

This is not disputable though it is typically a PC sin to notice this fact.

4.) Communists did get control and retain control of our press.

From yester-years Edward R. Murrow, to Walter Cronkite to today’s Rachel Maddow and Don Lemon our Lugenpresse is controlled either by closet Communists or fellow travelers. The Worldview of the Lugenpresse is Atheistic-Materialism.

5.) Communists did take over motion pictures and have retained control.

“Of all the Arts, for us the cinema is the most important.”

Vladimir Lenin


The Hollywood 10 really existed and were merely the tip of the iceberg of the Communist problem in Hollywood. When you view a Hollywood film you should just assume that you will be being served up some kind of Marxist egalitarian atheistic materialistic pablum.

The following linked video provides explicit connections between Communism and Hollywood. Do not view this video if four letter words trouble you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOtinTlx7yo&fbclid=IwAR0OL0lHfh8BJyLKjLjO5TKH0VP9pABfMfKJrjtGHbxEmxR89xEzKcwJtBQ

6.) Communists have corrupted our children.

The Government schools as Institutions catechize our children in to the atheistic-Materialistic worldview.

The University Scene

“As we should finally admit, from Berkeley to Yale to Mizzou, it is on our campuses where generations of cadres have received their Marxian indoctrination under permanent cover of ‘bright college years,’ football games, and cap and gown. Over the past century, these cadres became the indispensable legions of ideological victory in a ‘Cold War’ most Americans still insist they won.”

Diana West
The Red Thread


I have seen this as a Pastor and I have seen this in my extended family. I have seen 18 year olds head off to Colleges… even ones who advertise themselves as Conservative ones and what happens in the course of 2-4 years is that these young adults are transmogrified into the replacement leftist and proletariat class whose role is to march through the existing Institutions in order to revolutionize what little remains of our Christian social order.

As a parent or Cousin, or Brother or I would warn that sending young adults to University may not be wise, but, I, as a troglodyte knuckle dragging Christian minister what could I possibly know ? So, with excitement little Johnny and Suzy would be shipped off to school just to return in very little time with colored hair, nose rings, and in violent opposition to Thanksgiving Day, Christmas and Western Civilization in general. I’ve seen young people who I had catechized develop a “I know that Christianity is a myth” mindset which they learned from their Professors at their Conservative or Christian University.

I also saw it with my own eyes up close. When my oldest finished high school we allowed her to attend a local community college while serving as a Nanny – Au pair of a solid local Christian family. Not long after her starting I’m getting grilled inquiring how Christian the Puritans really were. Question were being raised about how just the social-order was that the Puritans built.

Finally, I decided that I had to attend the class wherein all this was coming from. I showed up to discover a Professor who could not have been more than 30. It wasn’t long before he was teeing off on the Puritans. I sat their clenching my jaw and curling my toes at his continued misrepresentations of the Puritan society. Finally, at the end of the class hour it was my turn. I didn’t have time to unravel everything he had said but I gave him a list of about 10 books he needed to read. I told him that he had grossly misrepresented the Puritans and I gave him chapter and verse on how that was so. I told him that the Puritans had very little to do with whatever it was he was teaching. I remember distinctly speaking to him about how he had completely gotten wrong how the Puritans understood Christianity. I also asked him if he realized that “the Puritans” constituted many streams that emptied into the same river so that it wasn’t always advantageous to speak about the “Puritans” without getting more specific. I didn’t let him get a word in edgewise for 10 minutes and then class was past over and the students were itching to get away.

A few weeks later he stopped my daughter and told her that he had looked up some of the sources I had given him and further told her I was right when it came to my sources.

Now the above could read like a “I told him” account but what I want it to be an account of is that the University is no place for God’s and our covenant seed. Certainly there may be exceptions where University might work, but on the whole the University (especially the Christian University) is not a place where parents want to place their children who are hungry for truth. 18 – 22 y/o are not equipped to go mano vs. mano with a well studied Collegiate liberal professor (tautology) when it comes to the field that the pagan Professor has “mastered.”

In another instance I had a young person who had been one of my best catechism students tell me that they had a major paper assigned requiring the students to explain what central question that had to be answered in order to pursue truth. This student wrote a paper that advocated an answer that he had learned from me over the years in Catechism. The answer to that question is and remains that the central question that has to be answered in order to pursue truth was the question of God’s existence. This Professor at this Conservative college told him that was not the right answer and graded his paper poorly for offering that answer. My young protege was crest fallen and was wrongly disappointed in me when they should have been disappointed with addlepated professor. The left had succeeded in picking off another young Christian altering the trajectory of their Christianity so that their Christianity ended up soft and squishy as they in turn became an academic.

Years ago, I went toe to toe with a Christian Minister Professor who now teaches at my Alma Mater. I do not believe, given the man’s views, that he was even Christian. We had a long and involved conversation that made me determined that I would do everything I could do to make sure no parent I knew would EVER send their children to sit under the tutelage of the heretic whom had come across my conversational path. Most Academic Ph. D’s I know (and I know a few) who are teaching young adults scare me to death. If I had a magic wand I’d make sure they never got near young skulls full of mush.

I could give other examples even more extreme.

Allow me one further observation on the consequences of what we are speaking of here. It is not only the students who have their faith shipwrecked. My observation has been that a result of this phenomenon I have recorded here it is often the case that not only is the student lost but so are their parents. I have seen repeatedly that a child, while at University, who is ideologically and theologically unraveled in terms of their Christianity end up pulling their parents to the left along with them. Parents so love their children that they end up being radicalized in a Marxist direction along with their child so that they don’t lose their relationship with their child. What I have seen is that parents will give up long held convictions, which were a consequence of their Christian faith in order that they won’t forever have to live in tension with their precious Johnny or Suzy. They would rather alienate Jesus then alienate their children.

With Whose Atonement Will You Be Covered?

Heidelberg Catechism

Q. 76) What does it mean to eat the crucified body of Christ and to drink his shed blood?

A. First, to accept with a believing heart all the suffering and the death of Christ, and so receive forgiveness of sins and life eternal.1

Second, to be united more and more to his sacred body through the Holy Spirit, who lives both in Christ and in us.2 Therefore, although Christ is in heaven3 and we are on earth, yet we are flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones,4 and we forever live and are governed by one Spirit, as the members of our body are by one soul.5

1 Jn 6:35, 40, 50-54.
2 Jn 6:55, 56; 1 Cor 12:13.
3 Acts 1:9-11; 3:21; 1 Cor 11:26; Col 3:1.
4 1 Cor 6:15, 17; Eph 5:29, 30; 1 Jn 4:13.
5 Jn 6:56-58; 15:1-6; Eph 4:15, 16; 1 Jn 3:24.


Here we come at the invitation and command of the Lord Christ to His table. And we might find ourselves asking “what means this,” and that even if we have been around these things all our lives. Just as a fish is the last one you’d want to ask about what water means so because Christians have been so long around the Lord’s table sometimes they are the last ones to know what it all means.

As such we take a few minutes to remind ourselves of the meaning of eating the crucified body of Christ and the meaning of drinking the shed blood of Christ.

For our purpose this morning note the language they use here in the question. Following Christ’s institution of the meal the catechizers speak directly about the Sacrament. They do not tell us that we are eating or drinking a symbol. They tell us that we are eating the crucified body of Christ and drinking His shed blood. They used this language even though they knew it had been misused and misinterpreted from the Church from which they were departing. They understood that even though there was not a literal consuming of the body and blood of Christ, still the union between the Church as body and Christ as the head was so intimate that they retained the idea of eating the broken body of Christ and drinking the shed blood of Christ. They offered a spiritual eating and a spiritual drinking and yet still a very real eating and drinking.

As they turn to the explicit answer of what this means they immediately point to the death of Christ by saying

First, to accept with a believing heart all the suffering and the death of Christ, and so receive forgiveness of sins and life eternal.1

They thus establish that in the Eucharist we find the atonement and our own escape from death. The table is thus proclaiming the death of Christ and that our sins are no more remembered by God. When we partake of the Table we set aside the sting of death and embrace life eternal.

Part of the implication of this is that we, as those who partake of Christ’s table, are not preoccupied with death. This sets us apart.

Let’s take our own social order as an example. We are seeing daily a preoccupation with avoiding death. Our social order is so fearful of the idea of death that, ironically enough, we are killing ourselves in the name of avoiding death. We are hearing, at every turn, are we not, that the most extreme measures are justified if we can only save one life. If we can save one life it is worth spiraling into a Great Depression. If we can save one life it is worth buying drones from China so as to make sure Battle Creek citizens are social distancing. If we can save one life we will shut down a whole state when the problem is restricted to three counties. If we can just save one life. And this as coming predominantly from those who have no problem visiting death upon the judicially innocent unborn.

The Christian, precisely because he comes to the Table and sits under the Word should not be characterized by this kind of abject and senseless fear. And why is that? Because the meaning of eating the body of Christ and drinking His shed blood is in part that Christ has died our death. We are the atoned for people. Christ has died in our place. In the table we eat of the bread of eternal life and we drink the cup of forgiveness. Death, at least should not, have the terrorizing effect on God’s people so that we pursue near certain death in wanton destruction of economic infrastructures in order to escape the panic and stampede of the remotely possible death.

Coming to the Lord’s Table gives us a preternatural calm. We have no desire to die before the Lord’s timing but neither do we find ourselves panicked out of our minds that we might die.

And so in proclaiming the Death of Christ as we come to the table and eat and drink in faith we once again are reminded of the Atonement that the Lord Christ provides. He takes from us our sins and accounts our sins to Him and God counts Christ’s righteousness … Christ’s acceptability … Christ’s favor … Christ’s perfection, to our account. We find our safety from our certain coming death in all that Christ has done for us.

This accepting of Christ’s death and atonement that is proclaimed in the Table really does mark the epistemologically self-conscious Christian as different.

As we live in a community of faith basic to any healthy community is embracing Christ’s atonement.

All communities outside of Christ, whatever foundation they may seek to have or profess, are founded on sin and so as instrumental to their fallen community they seek to establish some mechanism of atonement within their fallen social order for you see no social order established on sin can experience anything other than death. Such social orders are without effectual atonement, without gracious grace, and without a valid hope.

And so, as Atonement is an inescapable category (by this we mean that while the need of atonement may be verbally denied, all anti-Christ social orders [communities] will implement some form of godless atonement in order to deal with whatever idea of sin that social order creates and acknowledges) all social orders when examined will have a means of atonement — a means of covering sin. If men in a social order will not have Christ’s death and atonement they will ferret out false blood atonements.

And what is the means of Atonement right now in our social order? What will cover our sins of the fear of death? What atonement will deliver us from the power of fear of death? Why clearly one answer is vaccines. Vaccines are one of our blood atonements. They will cover our sin. They will set us free from our mindless fear of death. Or so we tell ourselves that.

So we eat the flesh of the unborn in vaccinating up. Our false atonement is mercury laden and has who knows what strange DNA and other pollutants and we inject all this in order to deliver us from death. We won’t have Christ’s blood atonement and His death in our place and so we create false blood atonements and we metaphorically eat their flesh and drink their blood.

You see, my friends, blood atonement has not gone away in our social order. It has merely been transferred. Atonement, imputation, substitution… all key realities of the Christian faith our inescapable realities that can not be escaped.

So, as we come to this table to eat His crucified body and drink His blood we do so understanding that in part the meaning is that Christ has died our death, has covered and forgiven our sins, and has, even now given to us a eternal life that finds us going from eternal life unto eternal life until this life though swallowed in death will yield the fullness of eternal life. We will have this Atonement… this forgiveness … this eternal life and no other.

From the Mailbag… Are You Saying The Seven Mountain Charismatics Are Correct?

Dear Pastor,

“How does one make the claim exegetically that the atonement (penal substitution) also includes “redeeming culture” as it were?”

Thanks,

Matthew S.

Dear Matthew,

Thanks for a insightful question. I would offer as a thumbnail sketch below,

1.) The world was held in bondage under sin. (Romans 5:12f)

2.) When Christ arrives he announces the coming of the Kingdom (Mark 1:15)

3.) The coming of the Kingdom requires the Atonement in order for Christ’s triumph over sin and all opposition to be complete.

We get this exegetically as we combine the reality of Mark 1:15 with the charge that Jesus gives His disciples after the resurrection. Jesus teaches that the disciples are to baptize the nations teaching them to observe all things wherein Christ commanded. From this we conclude that Christ’s intent was for all the Nations to be won before His return and that winning of the nations is connected to His atoning work. In other words, if Christ had not made atonement there could have been no winning of the Nations before Christ’s return.

4.) There is also the connection between the cultural mandate in Scripture, which is the divine injunction found in Genesis 1:28, in which God, after having created the world and all in it, ascribes to humankind the tasks of filling, subduing, and ruling over the earth. We would contend that the Atonement sets God’s people free to fulfill this cultural mandate.

5.) Christ is redeeming all things- the environment, disease, culture, politics, business, civil government, economics, media—the “seven mountains charismatics” are right on this issue because they agree with the Puritans and the scriptures here:

“and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.” Col 1:20

“that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.” 2 Cor 5:19

Now, granted the Seven Mountains Charismatics are not right on much else but on this point they are like the old blind sow who can find an acorn once in a while.