Fisking Mr. Warren’s Neighborhood Civic Forum Part I

Mr. Warren Questions B. Hussein Obama

LET’S TALK ABOUT PERSONAL LIFE. THE BIBLE SAYS THAT INTEGRITY AND LOVE ARE THE BASIS FOR LEADERSHIP. THIS IS A TOUGH QUESTION, WHAT
WOULD BE LOOKING OVER YOUR LIFE, EVERYBODY’S GOT WINGS, NOBODY’S PERFECT, WOULD BE THE GREATEST MORAL FAILURE…OF AMERICA?

B. Hussein Obama answers,

I THINK AMERICA’S GREATEST MORAL FAILURE IN MY LIFETIME HAS BEEN THAT WE STILL DON’T ABIDE BY THAT BASIC RESPECT IN MATTHEW THAT WHATEVER YOU DO FOR THE LEAST OF MY BROTHERS, YOU DO FOR ME.

AND NOTION OF — THAT BASIC PRINCIPLE APPLIES TO POVERTY. IT APPLIES TO RACISM AND SEXISM. IT APPLIES TO, YOU KNOW, NOT HAVING — NOT THINKING ABOUT PROVIDING LADDERS OF OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE TO GET INTO THE MIDDLE CLASS. I MEAN, THERE IS A PERVASIVE SENSE I THINK THAT THIS COUNTRY IS WEALTHY AND POWERFUL AS WE STILL DON’T SPEND ENOUGH TIME THINKING ABOUT THE LEAST OF THESE —

Pastor Bret Fisking,

This reveals Obama’s basic socialistic leaning. Behind this answer is the premise that the State must do more by way of wealth redistribution, and quota legislation.

Also the answer ignores the utter failure that the Nanny State has been. We have spent billions of dollars since FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society to eliminate poverty and to provide for “the least of these” and most of what has been accomplished is creating a permanent poverty class by our subsidizing poverty, as well as a slave class dependent upon Massa State for handouts and take care of them.

Indeed I would say the greatest domestic moral fault of America in the past 80 years has been to pursue, by way of legislation and policy, the impoverishment and enslavement of large swaths of our population. America has been guilty of pursuing policies that create and perpetuate “the least of these.” Out of the desire to build a permanent constituency of those who are constantly reminded what they are owed and how they have been victimized, politicians like Obama have created a climate of bitterness and hatred between those who have been taught to envy and those who are the countries producers. That is moral failure in spades.

Relief for the “least of these” will not be secured by quotas and wealth redistribution. Relief for the “least of these” will come by way of the State giving up the sovereignty that it has stolen from family, church, and education realms, so that these spheres of sovereignty can be strengthened to deal with the “least of these.”

If Obama is elected and is able to pursue his policies that will take care of “the least of these,” you can book it now that by the time Obama leaves office our “least of these” will be proportionally a larger percentage of the country and they will not be any better off then they were before the Lord Munificent Obama took office.

Finally, we can’t finish this section without noting the utter and total hypocrisy of this “man.” The least of the least of the least of these in America are the unborn and B. Hussein Obama can’t kill them fast enough. It takes a great deal of cheekiness to shed crocodile tears about the “least of these” while being a butcher and torturer of the defenseless.

CEO Rick Warren Asks,

NOW YOU’VE MADE NO DOUBT ABOUT YOUR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU TO TRUST IN CHRIST AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN ON A DAILY BASIS? I MEAN, WHAT DOES THAT REALLY LOOK LIKE?

Baby Killer B. Hussein Obama answers,

AS A STARTING POINT, IT MEANS I BELIEVE IN THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR MY SINS AND THAT I AM REDEEMED THROUGH HIM. THAT IS A SOURCE OF STRENGTH AND SUSTENANCE ON A DAILY BASIS. I KNOW THAT I DON’T WALK
ALONE, AND I KNOW THAT IF I CAN GET MYSELF OUT OF THE WAY, THAT I CAN MAYBE CARRY OUT IN SOME SMALL WAY WHAT HE INTENDS. AND IT MEANS THAT THOSE SINS THAT I HAVE ON A FAIRLY REGULAR BASIS HOPEFULLY WILL BE WASHED AWAY.

BUT WHAT IT ALSO MEANS, I THINK, IS A SENSE OF OBLIGATION TO EMBRACE NOT JUST WORDS BUT THROUGH DEEDS THE EXPECTATIONS THAT GOD HAS FOR US. AND THAT MEANS THINKING ABOUT THE LEAST OF THESE. IT MEANS ACTING — WELL, ACTING JUSTLY AND LOVING MERCY AND WALKING HUMBLY WITH OUR GOD. AND THAT, I THINK TRYING TO APPLY THOSE LESSONS ON A DAILY BASIS KNOWING THAT YOU ARE GOING TO FALL A LITTLE BIT SHORT EACH DAY AND
KIND OF TRYING TO BE ABLE TO TAKE NOTE AND SAY, WELL, THAT DIDN’T QUITE WORK OUT THE WAY I THINK IT SHOULD HAVE BUT MAYBE I CAN GET A LITTLE BIT BETTER. IT GIVES ME THE CONFIDENCE TO TRY THINGS INCLUDING THINGS LIKE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO SCREW UP ONCE IN A WHILE.

Pastor Bret Fisks,

Scripture reminds us that a you can tell a tree by its fruits. Obama can shout all he wants that he is ‘redeemed’ but if he produces the fruit of dead babies then he is either a liar or he is deceived.

This answer though is red meat for the leftist evangelical crowd.

Here is a question for the R2Kt virus guys. Let’s say you had B. Hussein Obama as a member of your congregation and in his job in the common realm he consistently pursues the death of the unborn as he has consistently done as State and US Senator, and further, he appeals to a well thought out natural law basis for his position that he insists honors the Lordship of Jesus…does your church leadership discipline President B. Husein Obama?

Rapid Fire Quotes That Kills The R2Kt Virus From Several Lesser Known Reformed Assasins

“Almost all of our men are of this opinion, that heretics should be punished with the sword.”

Buggsy Zanchius

“De Magistratu,” Operum Theologicorum [1613][Miscellaneorum], 7:166-88

Cited in Turretin Vol. III, p. 334

“Is it lawful for the magistrate to proceed against heretics with the sword?” He answers affirmatively

Machine Gun Bucanus

Institutes of Christian Religion 49 [1606],

p. 874 cited in Turretin, Vol. III pg. 334

“It is not a question concerning the seditious, blasphemous, heretics, who besides the propagation of false doctrine, excite sedition in addition, instigate subjects against magistrates and utter direct and open blasphemies against God; for that they can be capitally punished on account of sedition and blasphemies we do not wholly controvert.”

Locus 24.317, “De Magistratu Politici,” Loci Theologici [1868], 6:446

“No one of us denies that pertinacious heretics can be excommunicated, no one hinders the punishment of seditious heretics, disturbers of the public peace, with the sword.”

Baby Face Gerhard

Locus 24.355, ibid. , 6:470

Both cited in Turretin, Vol. III p. 334

An Insight Into Rick Warren’s Integrity

“I trust the integrity of both” (candidates.)

Rick Warren
CEO of Saddleback Community Center

Rick Warren knows the blood dripping from the hands of Barack Hussein Obama on the issue of abortion and he trusts his integrity?

That tells me a great deal about Warren’s integrity

“I have to tell you up front, both these guys are my friends. I don’t happen to agree with everything either of them teach or believe but they are both Patriots and they have very different views on how America can be strengthened in America. We’ve got to learn to disagree without demonizing each other and we need to restore civility. We need to restore civilty in our civil discourse and that’s the goal of the Saddleback civil forum.

Senator thank you. Now, would you stand — would you stand and thank Senator Barack Obama. Thank you.

I just want to remind you that one of the greatest freedoms we have here in America is the freedom of speech, even the freedom to protest this meeting. That’s a good thing, but we have to learn how to have civility in our civilization. How to stop being rude, how to stop demonizing each other, how to have a discussion and a debate because we all want America to be a greater place. God bless you.”

Rick Warren
CE0 — Saddleback Community Center

Here we see what Evangelicalism has been reduced to. Evangelicalism is all about being nice.

Civility occurs when your disagreeing over which way is the best way to drive to Aunt Millies for lunch. Civility is needed when you are discussing whether you should seed or sod when you landscape. Civility is needed when you’re disagreeing with an umpire over the called third strike. But how much civility is really required when we are debating with murderers of those not yet born? How much civility is really required when we are debating those who would continue to aid in the destruction of the spiritual and moral fabric of the country? When do we move past civility to pointed desperation in our debate?

We are dying as a people and culture, but what Warren seems to be primarily interested in our death throes is that we are civilized to each other while we are dying.

Fisking The OPC On Church Endorsements

Recently one of the readers of this blog brought the following article to my attention and suggested that I should comment on this article. The article can be located at http://opc.org/qa.html?question_id=318

The person who wrote this article for the OPC question and answer format is anonymous.

Will the OPC Endorse a Particular Presidential Candidate?

Question:

Will the OPC endorse a particular candidate for President of the United States? Have individual OP congregations endorsed particular candidates?

Answer:

Greetings in Jesus Christ our Lord and only Savior.

Regarding the first question, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church does not endorse candidates for public office and that for at least three reasons. In what follows, nothing is to be construed as in any way limiting the responsibility of Christians—pastors and congregants—to be good citizens, from supporting their choice of candidate, and from voting according to their conscience. The only application is to the Church as a body, speaking representatively through its leadership, session, presbytery, and general assembly.

1.) I’m don’t think it is necessary for denominations or congregations to endorse particular candidates. Such a move would never be necessary as long as denominations and Churches were speaking the revealed mind of God on the issues which the Scripture explicitly speak. For example, in this election cycle there would not be any need to tell people not to vote for John McCain or Barack Hussein Obama if God’s people were taught well on the first commandment, sixth commandment, and eighth commandment to name only a few.

2.)This takes us to the issue where it is said that people should not be kept “from supporting their choice of candidate, and from voting according to their conscience.” Well certainly people shouldn’t be kept from supporting their choice of candidate and from voting according to their conscience so long as their choice of candidate and their vote cast according to their conscience aren’t pursuing an agenda that is set in utter contrast to the explicit teaching of Scripture. While the Church may not explicitly say, “y’all go out and vote for (fill in the blank)” it should be able to explicitly speak to issues that Scripture speaks to and then conclude by saying…”It would be Biblically wrong to support candidates who care not for what God’s Word reveals.”

3.) Note that the idea above is that individual Christians can support who they will but the Church as the Church is restricted on what it can say except in a very circumscribed way. This communicates that God is agnostic about candidates who desire to rule in a way contrary to his revealed word. The Church ought to be able to flatly say, “since God’s Word prohibits Murder it would be sin to vote for the lead Donkey, or, since God’s Word prohibits theft it would be sin to vote for the lead Elephant.

Note also that this latter statement is not to be construed as limiting the judicatories of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church from responding to political issues, e.g., the OPC has taken a position regarding Abortion and Women in the Military. These issues, however, focus on ethics rather than politics. Speaking out on issues like these may be construed as the Church fulfilling its prophetic purpose.

First, this part of the OPC answer is a bit confusing. On one hand the writer says that the judicatories of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church are not to be limited from responding to political issues but on the other hand the writer seems to suggest that the judicatories of the OPC are better served to focus on ethic rather than politics. This sounds like a creeping contradiction.

Further, it seems inconsistent to say that the Church judicatories can speak to particular ethical issues that are front and center in the political realm but it can’t speak officially, as the Church, on candidates who embrace those issues that the Church has prophetically condemned. Maybe the Church as the Church doesn’t want to officially endorse any one candidate but it seems that it should be able to officially speak as to who absolutely isn’t endorsed due to certain candidates embracing positions that the Church has officially prophetically spoken against.

By the way if the Church judicatories of the OPC were to take its own prophetic pronouncements on abortion and Women in the military seriously they would come out and explicitly say as the Church, “We must recommend, in light of God’s explicit teaching on abortion and Women in the military, that our people not vote for the lead Donkey or the lead Elephant. A refusal to do that reveals how shallow the OPC’s prophetic pronouncements really are.

Therefore, this response is directed narrowly to the specific question: Will the OPC endorse a particular candidate for President of the United States? The following attempts to explain why not.

First, the Church’s purpose suggests that she not be side-tracked into the political arena. Christ calls the church to proclaim the gospel to the entire world (Mark 14:9; Acts 1:8). The gospel proclaims that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), which leaves people dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1f). The only way that any person can have the enmity between himself and God removed is through the finished work of Christ on the cross (Ephesians 2:8-10; Romans 5:1f).

The Church applying God’s word to the political arena does not make for a ‘side-tracked’ church anymore then prophetically applying God’s word in the ethical arena makes for a side-tracked church. When the Church does speak to the political arena she should speak salvifically. Any prophetic voice into that realm should be finished by reminding those in the Political realm that not only should they repent of their sinful agenda but they should embrace Christ who alone can save them from their sins. In short speaking into the political arena doesn’t mean that we quit speaking the Gospel of the Christ who offers Himself as the salvation of the World.

To complain about getting side tracked by speaking to the political realm just sounds like a clever way to avoid speaking to one place that desperately needs the Gospel proclaimed in all of its saving authority.

The church’s purpose or goal is realized in its practices. These practices are expressed in the liturgy of the church as she gathers together to worship. For example, God’s call to worship instructs the people of God to be hospitable and welcome all who come. This hospitality includes, but is not limited to, time in worship; it extends to individual homes.

I’m not sure what the point here is unless it is to subtly suggest that we don’t want to bring up issues that will keep people from visiting our hospitable Churches. Is the point here that we should welcome all who come including those who vote for baby murderers and people who vote for our women to be in foxholes? Now certainly, we we do want to welcome all people but not at the price of suggesting that God welcomes people into His Kingdom who will not repent of disobedience.

The church’s confession instructs the congregation in another allegiance. We are not a nation under God. Rather we are a citizenship of heaven gathered together to glorify and enjoy the Triune God. Our confession of sin calls us to reconciliation and peace by confessing our own sins and seeking forgiveness for our wrongs. God’s kingdom, His politic is what is being gathered together for the practices of that kingdom. The state politic has none of this in mind.

It is true that our citizenship is in heaven but it is also true that we are to be salt and light in this world. Salt is a preservative and the Church refuse to do its job as salt what good is it except to be cast out and trodden upon? The quote above sounds as if the Kingdom of God is restricted to the Holy Huddle that occurs on Sunday in Worship. It is true that the state politic has none of what he speaks of above in mind and its also true that it never will as long as the Church doesn’t seek to take the aroma of the Gospel into the public sphere.

It is good for the church to gather under God’s politic to be reminded of our sin and of our reconciliation and forgiveness. It is good to be reminded that nothing can remove us from God’s Kingdom. But we would go on to say that it is good to be taught that we disburse from Worship with the purpose of making God’s Kingdom known so that it overcomes the Kingdoms of this World.

Therefore, to endorse a candidate for president and all that would involve would be to take the church’s attention off of the kingdom of which it is a part and put it on a kingdom that is passing away…

Again, the Church doesn’t have to endorse a candidate for president without having a word for God’s people during this election cycle.

Second, there seems to be an assumption here that God has no interest in seeing the public sphere come to know the fullness of His joy by being in league with Him. There seems to be an assumption that the World is an evil sphere that God has no interest in. Certainly the Church shouldn’t become a political institution but in order for it to be as Spiritual as it is called to be it must pronounce the Kingship of the Lord Jesus over every area of life.

Ee need to keep in mind that the Scriptures teach that the Kings are to “Kiss the Son lest He be angry and they perish in the way.”

Second, the authority to bind conscience is limited to the revealed Word of God. The Scripture calls all men to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Because God speaks in and through His Word, that Word is authoritative and people are conscience bound to submit to that Word. Granted, not all men do. However the Church, because it declares and proclaims God’s holy Word may command men to repent and believe. The authority is not ours; it is God’s speaking in and through His Word.

Yes, and all of that applies to the political realm. Even politicians are conscience bound to submit to the Word. Even politicians are called to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Even politicians must know that God’s Word is authoritative.

Second, while the authority to bind the conscience is limited to the revealed Word of God, the judicatories of the OPC has, in keeping with the Word of God, bound consciences of its people by speaking on abortion and women in the military. On that basis alone the OPC judicatories ought to be able to say, just on the basis of those two actions, that the lead Donkey and the lead Elephant cannot be voted for by Christian people.

The ground on which the Church can rightly speak is on the clear declaration of the Bible. The Bible does not command us to vote for any particular candidate; therefore, the Church can not declare any candidate to be “God’s choice” in an election.

Maybe it cannot declare any candidate to be “God’s choice” but it can declare which candidates are not “God’s choice.”

However, in any case, the conscience could not be bound by God’s Word, because God’s Word is not about the kingdom of this world but the kingdom of God.

If the OPC really believed this then they wouldn’t have spoken to abortion or women in military since those issues, by this reasoning, are about the kingdom of this world.

Again, not the dualism between God’s Kingdom and the kingdom of this world as if the age to come, which has already triumphed in Christ isn’t to overcome this present wicked age.

Third, the practice would lead to a disruption of the peace and unity of the church. It is unlikely that any particular church would agree to endorse a candidate for the office of president. To get an entire denomination to endorse a candidate is even further removed. Doing such would divide congregations and lead to church splits. Therefore, the peace and unity of the church would be disrupted, which is contrary to God’s holy Word. For a church to have divisions over that which the Bible teaches is regrettable enough, but at least the issue at stake is truth. However, to have the church divided over that which is not biblical is unconscionable.

Here is what I suspect is what is really behind all the rest of the smoke. This sounds like, “If we endorsed a candidate we would lose people. As such, we allow our people to vote for socialists, communists, Republicans, Libertarians, Democrats, or Constitutionalists. They can vote for whoever they want because if we started speaking God’s mind on the issues then our attendance would suffer.” Hence, the peace and unity of the Church is pursued at the cost of God’s revealed Word. We don’t care if they vote for abortionist candidates (in violation of the sixth commandment), wealth redistributionist candidates (in violation of the eight commandment), or the divine state candidates (in violation of the first commandment) so long as they don’t leave our churches.

I hope that this has helped somewhat. The same question will evoke various responses from other respondents. However, many years ago, the OPC faced the question of involvement in the political process. Some people left our fellowship over this issue, but the Church has always been clear: we have not been called to the political arena of this world; we have, however, been called to the political arena of God’s kingdom.

Does the political arena of God’s Kingdom not overturn the political arenas of this world?