Yeah, I understood Lane’s original post just fine – it was about trusting in God’s sovereignty in the midst of the possible election of a man who had led an “evil” career. But he also warns, if the “other guy” is elected (the one he does not criticize!), not to think that “God won.”
Look, I understand part of what it means to campaign is to demonize your opponent. I understand that Obama is probably not quite as wicked as he is being made out to be. Still, I would say “evil” is an appropriate adjective to describe Obama’s career. I mean, “evil” has no meaning if we cannot use it to describe his opposition to the “Infant Born Alive Act.” Any, pooh, poohing of Obama’s career as being evil requires the person pooh poohing to step back and take a deep breath in order to examine whether or not he would call anything “evil.”
Okay, let’s do call a spade a spade – you’re calling a man being evil because his policies are different than yours. Comparing those who stand “idly by” and allow Obama to be elected to those who stood “idly by” while Hitler rose to power is a perfect example of silly verbal pyrotechnics.
Says who? You? Who are you that I should be mindful of your analysis?
It is not verbal pyrotechnics in the slightest to call a spade a ruddy shovel. Here is a man whose policies included creating a national police force (KGB anyone?) includes bankrupting the industry that creates 80% of our wealth (extreme tree hugger enviornmentalist) includes Marxist liquor in its 100% proof form. Quite to the contrary I would say that the man is silly who calls warnings about such a man “silly verbal pyrotechnics.”
I think my response stands.
Sorry, just not seeing it.
This is not about being nice or sweet. It’s about being Christian and honest.Explain exactly how socialism (the economic system) is related to the text of the Bible. Where are these admonitions against state involvement in national economies?
Anybody for “Thou Shalt Not Steal.” Also there is the problem is Socialistic systems of the State seeking to seize God’s sovereignty. (Oh, I am dearly going to love this if this turns into a debate on whether or not socialism is biblical.)
Might I suggest you give “Idols for destruction” a read. Particularly bone up on the subject of ressentiment that it covers.
And, exactly which “other anti-Christian” positions does he hold? I have heard nothing about him prohibiting Christian services, printing of bibles, sacraments, the ordaining of ministers and missionaries, or even removing tax-exempt status for goodness sake!
How many anti-Christian positions are enough in order for him to be evil?
Please, do you really think that somebody campaigning for President leads with his chin? It is amazing enough that the socialistic things he believes have come out as much as they have. Still, mark my word, if Obama is elected with a majority Democrat House and Senate you can look for the kind of Hate speech laws that Canada has now. Such laws will effect speech from American pulpits.
Since there is no doubt that we will “lose our freedoms” as you say, I have to ask – which of your freedoms did you lose under Clinton?
Clinton never had a Democratic super-majorities in the House and Senate.
No one is advocating “doing nothing” – but of course that begs the question – where do you get the idea that there is some special Christian duty in this election that people might be shirking?
Oh, could it be something like opposing those who vote against Infants born alive?
God wins – no matter whom He chooses to be elected.
Yes and God won when Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and Lenin came to power. And your point is…?
Like Jason Stellman, I really have no horse in this race, but I am very, very alarmed at what elections do to Christians in my own tradition. So much talk about “supporting evil” and “rights” – it’s all worldly thinking folks – it just is
Say’s you. Some of us believe that evil really can incarnate itself in the flesh and blood world we live in. Some of us know ourselves to well, and what we are capable of when given to much unbridled power and so don’t want that same power given to people who have shown themselves to be evil.
Oh, the Church in the West is teeming with earnest Christians. For my money this is the Church’s problem. I would give anything for a few less earnest Christians and a few more thinking Christians.
I’m wondering if pulpits filled by WSC professors would have nothing to fear from such “hate laws”, since God’s law should not speak to the civil realm under R2kt.
Mark,
Initially yes.
But, historically this kind of stuff, once it has lopped off the periphery of the Christian faith will eventually go for the heart as well. R2Kt stand keeps them safe in the short run, but in the long run they are in the same pot as everyone else.
Bret,
I agree. And further, would the R2Kt minister really have any ground to protest when the “hate crime” police shut the church doors, given his belief that the 1st table of the law is immaterial to the magistrate?
Mark,
I have to tell you that just when I think I’m being to hard on R2Kt guys, they go and do something that makes me realize that I am being to soft on them. At one prominent R2Kt virus blog there is actually discussion going on that Christians should be indifferent on voting on California’s Proposition 8 (the one that allows guys to put rings on each other’s fingers).
I’m telling you … these guys are genuinely demented.
Certainly your conclusions about the Magistrate shutting church doors are perfectly in keeping with their “reasoning” quotient.
Mark, great point. I’ve said that here before in the comments section somewhere. What is R2Kt going to do when hate crimes laws are passed that forbid, for example, “intolerant” speech against gays and lesbians? What are they telling their brethren in Canada and Europe? You can only avoid passages like Romans 1 for so long before you too get thrown in jail.
As to the post, it appears that the massive social engineering that the state partakes in now is theologically okay with R2Kt folks. Your interlocutor says, “Explain exactly how socialism (the economic system) is related to the text of the Bible. Where are these admonitions against state involvement in national economies?”
The Bible, after all, says nothing about politics and sociology. Nothing. The state may re-engineer the family, the community, and the environment. Translation: “The earth is the magistrate’s and the fullness thereof.”