Joshua Ambassador asked;
“The practical question in the debate is this: Nearly everyone in society is unregenerate today, spiritually blind, and suppressing the truth. What basis can there be, then, for law and justice?”
Bret responds,
There can be no basis for law and justice if we compromise with the heathen. Indeed, compromising with the heathen means “non-law,” and “injustice.” Let the heathen compromise with Biblical Christians.
The basis of any social order must be God’s Law Word enforced by Magistrates. The current humanist “Law and justice” is enforced on me by the Magistrate. Why shouldn’t we advocate that God’s Law and Justice be enforced upon the heathen by Christian Magistrates? Is God so small that we must wait until the Christ haters agree to be ruled by God’s law in the civil realm? This is the Usus politicus sive civilis of the law. This the understanding that the law serves the commonwealth or body politic as a force to restrain sin.
JA asked,
When people who are new to the debate hear the arguments of presuppositionalists, it sounds like they are saying that all the unregenerate are so willfully blind that it’s pointless to even try to come to a common agreement with them about what is right and wrong. The basis for Law, justice, and government in society can’t exist. Therefore Christians should go to some uninhabited place and form their own society.
BLMc responds
Because all ground is common ground (God’s ground) it is not pointless to pray and expect conversion. At the same time it is true that no ground is neutral ground. Since no ground is neutral ground we must not yield any ground to the unregenerate as if they have deed, title, or right to that ground. All must yield to Christ’s Lordship in every area because every piece of ground is the Kings.
If the heathen are given the whip hand though, it is true that the basis of Law, justice, and government in society can’t exist. This because increasingly obvious as the antithesis works out its implications on both sides. Therefore non-Christians should Kiss the Son, lest they perish in the way.
If you compromise with the heathen, the end will ALWAYS eventually be increasing heathenism and humanist anti-Christ law.
Let the heathen go look for uninhabited lands to live in.
Look… it is either rule or be ruled. We can rule by God’s glorious law – and this despite the heathen screaming like stuck pigs, or we can be ruled by Old Slewfoot’s hobnail ruinous law that seeks to maim, kill, and destroy.
Whose law would you be ruled by?
JA wrote,
Yes, the Pilgrims did that but there was a lot more land available then. And plenty of Christians have to “seek the peace of the city where they are captives” (Jeremiah 29 from memory), which surely involves co-operating with the unregenerate and coming to some kind of agreement with them about how the city/community/nation should be governed.
BLMc responds
Cooperate with the unregenerate on these matters? Isn’t that defined as sin? Let the unregenerate co-operate with me.
Cooperation with the heathen is a denial of Christ’s crown and rightful rule over his creation. Christ doesn’t claim the right to rule heathen lands as Redeemer but as Creator, King, and Judge. All nations who will not submit to Him shall be judged according to His eternal moral Law. What has become of the Philistines? The Babylonians? The Assyrians? The Greek empire? The Roman empire? The native American “indians”? The Aztecs? The Mayans? They all succumbed to Christ’s judgement and are no more. And presently it looks like all the European nations are soon to join them as they repudiate their Christian foundation.
Psalm 110
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
God has only one standard for ALL nations.
WCF 19:5
5. The moral law doth forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it. Neither doth Christ in the gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation.
Lev Ch 18
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
Psalm 2
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
It’s hard to know where to start in this discussion. I would like to think that the disagreement that Van Til, Rushdooney, and presuppositionalists have with Turretin is just semantics. However they insist vociferously that it is not. Apparently Turretin has seriously erred, along with many other Reformed writers. Whether they realize it or not, Turretin and his followers are denying Christ’s kingship, compromising with the heathen, and denying total depravity.
Their apologetics and evangelism are apparently completely off track too. Since unregenerate man (whether in the Church or in the world) only suppresses the truth, spiritually blind, etc we should only pray that God would regenerate him, so that we can finally start talking to him. Maybe we can tell him to repent, but that’s it. We should not waste time reasoning with him, even though God does that with people who are little better than heathens in Isaiah 1.
I don’t think there’s much disagreement between Turretin and Van Til about the ideal. Yes, ideally, the foundations of law, government, society should be based firmly on the entire Word of God. But we need law and government right now, or the unregenerate and regenerate cannot co-exist. Yes, God has decreed that all nations will serve Christ, but He has also decreed that the unregenerate will vastly outnumber the regenerate in every nation for a long period of time. During that long period, it is his will that nations and governments be established, laws be enforced, so that there is enough order for society to exist and for evangelism to happen. But Van Til makes it sound like non-Christian governments are so blind, and unregenerate man so rebellious and violent, that any measure of law and order is impossible.
Under Van Tilian thinking, the unregenerate cannot even live in a Christian nation. They only suppress the truth, and rebel against God’s law. In fact it would be dangerous even to tolerate their existence. They are not subject to God’s law – including the law “Thou shalt not kill.” They are murderers in waiting. And not just the heathen, Marxists, and humanists need to be executed or deported from a Christian country. All unregenerate within the Church need to be thrown out too – because they are just as incapable of obeying the commandment against murder as the heathen are.
Co-operating with the heathen may not be the best expression. But if you were a believer in Jerusalem, and heard God telling you to submit to Nebuchadnezzar (Jeremiah 27) or a believer in Babylon and told seek the peace of the city where you are a captive, how would you do it?
Jer 27:8 And it shall come to pass, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve the same Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and that will not put their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation will I punish, saith the LORD, with the sword, and with the famine, and with the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.
Jer 27:9 Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon:
Jer 27:10 For they prophesy a lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish.
Jer 27:11 But the nations that bring their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him, those will I let remain still in their own land, saith the LORD; and they shall till it, and dwell therein.
Jer 27:12 I spake also to Zedekiah king of Judah according to all these words, saying, Bring your necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him and his people, and live.
Jer 27:13 Why will ye die, thou and thy people, by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence, as the LORD hath spoken against the nation that will not serve the king of Babylon?
JA writes,
It’s hard to know where to start in this discussion. I would like to think that the disagreement that Van Til, Rushdooney, and presuppositionalists have with Turretin is just semantics. However they insist vociferously that it is not. Apparently Turretin has seriously erred, along with many other Reformed writers.
BLMc writes,
That is correct. They seriously erred. However, we should not be surprised that with the message of time that more and more light breaks forth from Scripture.
All the Reformation that needed to happen did not happen in the 16th century.
JA writes,
Whether they realize it or not, Turretin and his followers are denying Christ’s kingship, compromising with the heathen, and denying total depravity.
BLMc responds,
True.
JA writes,
Their apologetics and evangelism are apparently completely off track too. Since unregenerate man (whether in the Church or in the world) only suppresses the truth, spiritually blind, etc we should only pray that God would regenerate him, so that we can finally start talking to him. Maybe we can tell him to repent, but that’s it. We should not waste time reasoning with him, even though God does that with people who are little better than heathens in Isaiah 1.
BLMc responds,
Anybody who tells you that man hears the Word before he is regenerated is NOT Reformed.
It is simply the case the God has ordained regeneration to happen in the context of the Word traveling along the tracks of the Spirit. It really is silly to divorce them as if they are not together the effectual means of regeneration.
However to say that man hears and understands and has faith and so is regenerated is pure Arminianism.
JA writes.
I don’t think there’s much disagreement between Turretin and Van Til about the ideal.
BLMc
There’s all kinds of disagreement on the foundational starting point.
Of course, Reformed chaps like Turretin and all those who embrace Natural Law remain Reformed but as those who are involved in severe contradiction.
JA writes,
Yes, ideally, the foundations of law, government, society should be based firmly on the entire Word of God. But we need law and government right now, or the unregenerate and regenerate cannot co-exist.
BLMc responds,
Right …. so it is the case that Christians use force to rule by God’s civil use of law.
JA writes,
Yes, God has decreed that all nations will serve Christ, but He has also decreed that the unregenerate will vastly outnumber the regenerate in every nation for a long period of time. During that long period, it is his will that nations and governments be established, laws be enforced, so that there is enough order for society to exist and for evangelism to happen. But Van Til makes it sound like non-Christian governments are so blind, and unregenerate man so rebellious and violent, that any measure of law and order is impossible.
BLMc
A nation can be ruled by a very small % of Christian population according to Christian standards. Unless that is the case the whole nation will be ruled by heathen standards that will get increasingly worse and worse over time and the non-Christians become more and more epistemologically self-conscious regarding their wickedness.
By God’s common providence the heathen are not as wicked as they possibly can be and as such some measure of law and order and sometimes be hoped for.
JA writes,
Under Van Tilian thinking, the unregenerate cannot even live in a Christian nation. They only suppress the truth, and rebel against God’s law. In fact it would be dangerous even to tolerate their existence. They are not subject to God’s law – including the law “Thou shalt not kill.” They are murderers in waiting. And not just the heathen, Marxists, and humanists need to be executed or deported from a Christian country. All unregenerate within the Church need to be thrown out too – because they are just as incapable of obeying the commandment against murder as the heathen are.
BLMc responds,
The Law in its civil use in a Christian commonwealth restrains men from being as wicked as they otherwise might be. That is why we have the civil use of the law. Since the heathen, in a Christian commonwealth are hemmed in by God’s law, their existence is allowed.
And it is true that all heathen are indeed murderers in waiting. To deny that is to deny the fallenness of fallen man. Arminians do that all the time.
I’m all for deporting all Marxists.
Joshua, you really are arguing like an Arminian.
JA writes,
Co-operating with the heathen may not be the best expression. But if you were a believer in Jerusalem, and heard God telling you to submit to Nebuchadnezzar (Jeremiah 27) or a believer in Babylon and told seek the peace of the city where you are a captive, how would you do it?
Jer 27:8 And it shall come to pass, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve the same Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and that will not put their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation will I punish, saith the LORD, with the sword, and with the famine, and with the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.
Jer 27:9 Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon:
Jer 27:10 For they prophesy a lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish.
Jer 27:11 But the nations that bring their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him, those will I let remain still in their own land, saith the LORD; and they shall till it, and dwell therein.
Jer 27:12 I spake also to Zedekiah king of Judah according to all these words, saying, Bring your necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him and his people, and live.
Jer 27:13 Why will ye die, thou and thy people, by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence, as the LORD hath spoken against the nation that will not serve the king of Babylon?
BLMc responds,
But God has not told us to compromise with the heathen. He has told us to have dominion. The King has come and God’s word no longer teaches Christians to compromise with the Christ haters.
Another thought. General and special revelation harmonize perfectly. The Bible clarifies, confirms, and adds to natural law. There’s no contradiction between them.
That’s what makes true Christianity compelling to the unregenerate. Its truth and beauty are hard to resist. He’s like King Agrippa – persuaded, but not persuaded. “King Agrippa, Believest thou the prophets? I know thou believest. …Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.”
This exchange shows that the unregenerate – whether possessing knowledge of natural law, Scripture, or both – can recognize the truth and feel the force of it.
The heathen recognized that Christian missionaries were telling them something unique. The new religion, unlike their paganism, did not contradict natural law at any point. It also showed them how to be forgiven all their transgressions of a law which was always condemning them and which they were always violating.
All false religion contradicts natural law and moral law somewhere (again no contradiction between them, though the revelation of law in Scripture is clearer than revelation of law in nature).
Polytheism violates the laws of logic – God by definition has every possible perfection in an infinite degree, so how can there be any other being with divine powers?
The Mormons advocated polygamy. Polygamy goes against natural law and common sense; there’s roughly equal numbers of men and women in the world, so marriage should consist only of one man and one woman.
The Roman Catholics advocate transubstantiation – the wafer turn into the body of Christ even though it looks, smells and tastes like a wafer. It contradicts the most basic laws of nature.
This is where the modern two kingdoms theory goes off the rails. It says governments should enforce natural law, but doesn’t admit that natural law dimly reveals both tables of the moral law. Therefore, a civil magistrate who gives the same privileges to false religion as he does to the true religion, is violating natural law. False religion inevitably violates both tables of the law, so the “neutral” magistrate, finds himself forced to decide which religious expressions are permissible and which are not (Muslim child marriage, for example). He tries to remain neutral in religious matters, but natural law testifies so strongly for God that he is forced to rule in favor of true religion or against it.
Natural law covers a lot of ground. It teaches us that we should all should love the one true God and love our neighbor. It does not show us how to do that, but it still teaches enough moral truth to show that all religions are false except Biblical Christianity. Natural law is not neutral; it testifies only in favor of the true God and always for Him. But it completely lacks the power to forgive anyone or change anyone.
Van Til and Rushdooney are right – there is no neutrality. No Reformed writer ever suggested otherwise. What the Reformers also said was that the heathen can recognise enough moral truth to admit that Christianity is the true religion, but won’t submit to Christ until regenerated.
Their ability to recognise moral truth means that enough law and order can exist to make life livable and evangelism possible. The problem is when Christians are content with that, and stop short of evangelizing every divine institution – family, church and state.
JA writes,
Another thought. General and special revelation harmonize perfectly. The Bible clarifies, confirms, and adds to natural law. There’s no contradiction between them.
BLMc responds,
General Revelation will NEVER be read aright unless special revelation is presupposed. General Revelation means what it means only if read through the lens of Special Revelation. For example, w/o special Revelation, fallen man insists that divine creation via God’s fiat word is not true but what is true is evolution.
JA writes,
That’s what makes true Christianity compelling to the unregenerate. Its truth and beauty are hard to resist. He’s like King Agrippa – persuaded, but not persuaded. “King Agrippa, Believest thou the prophets? I know thou believest. …Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.”
BLMc responds
Proper translation;
Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”
What makes Christianity compelling to the heathen is the work of the Holy Spirit regenerating them so that they finally see the truth and beauty of Christianity.
JA writes,
This exchange shows that the unregenerate – whether possessing knowledge of natural law, Scripture, or both – can recognize the truth and feel the force of it.
BLMc responds,
Sure …. they can recognize it… and then suppress the truth in unrighteousness except when it serves their rebellious purposes. For example, the heathen will talk about right and wrong. This is a Biblical concept that does not exist w/o presupposing Christianity and yet the heathen will define for themselves right and wrong. By admitting that “right and wrong exist” they climb up in God’s lap. By insisting that they get to decide right and wrong they slap God in the face.
JA writes,
The heathen recognized that Christian missionaries were telling them something unique. The new religion, unlike their paganism, did not contradict natural law at any point. It also showed them how to be forgiven all their transgressions of a law which was always condemning them and which they were always violating.
BLMc
Only after they were regenerated to see that. Until them they hate Christ and His Word.
JA writes,
All false religion contradicts natural law and moral law somewhere (again no contradiction between them, though the revelation of law in Scripture is clearer than revelation of law in nature).
BLMc responds,
OK
As long as we admit Romans 8:7
JA writes,
Polytheism violates the laws of logic – God by definition has every possible perfection in an infinite degree, so how can there be any other being with divine powers?
BLMc
There are no “Laws of Logic” apart from presupposing God and His Word. Any “logic” the heathen uses is an example of sneaking in borrowed capital from the Christian Worldview. Logic makes no sense apart from the absolutes only Christianity can provide.
JA writes,
The Mormons advocated polygamy. Polygamy goes against natural law and common sense; there’s roughly equal numbers of men and women in the world, so marriage should consist only of one man and one woman.
BLMc responds
Therefore Natural Law teaches that when war has wiped out a large % of men from a given nation therefore polygamy is acceptable.
JA writes,
The Roman Catholics advocate transubstantiation – the wafer turn into the body of Christ even though it looks, smells and tastes like a wafer. It contradicts the most basic laws of nature.
BLMc responds,
Well, I’m not Roman Catholic but if I were I would ask you … “Have you ever heard of the word ‘Miracle?'”
JA writes,
This is where the modern two kingdoms theory goes off the rails. It says governments should enforce natural law, but doesn’t admit that natural law dimly reveals both tables of the moral law. Therefore, a civil magistrate who gives the same privileges to false religion as he does to the true religion, is violating natural law. False religion inevitably violates both tables of the law, so the “neutral” magistrate, finds himself forced to decide which religious expressions are permissible and which are not (Muslim child marriage, for example). He tries to remain neutral in religious matters, but natural law testifies so strongly for God that he is forced to rule in favor of true religion or against it.
BLMc responds
2K goes off the rails by appealing to the idea that fallen man can not only receive Natural Law but work in co-operation with it. When 2K says that fallen man can read Natural Law aright they are contradicting the Reformed faith but more importantly they are contradicting Romans 1:16f and Romans 8:7 as well as other passages.
JA writes,
Natural law covers a lot of ground. It teaches us that we should all should love the one true God and love our neighbor. It does not show us how to do that, but it still teaches enough moral truth to show that all religions are false except Biblical Christianity. Natural law is not neutral; it testifies only in favor of the true God and always for Him. But it completely lacks the power to forgive anyone or change anyone.
BLMc responds
Yes… it does teach that … whereupon fallen man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.
I embrace the Synod of Dordt statement;
The Synod Dort on the effectiveness of Natural Law;
Third & Fourth Head
Article 4
There remain, however, in man since the fall, the glimmerings of natural light, whereby he retains some knowledge of God, of natural things, and of the differences between good and evil, and discovers some regard for virtue, good order in society, and for maintaining an orderly external deportment. But so far is this light of nature from being sufficient to bring him to a saving knowledge of God and to true conversion, that he is incapable of using it aright even in things natural and civil. Nay, further, this light, such as it is, man in various ways renders wholly polluted and holds it in unrighteousness, by doing which he becomes inexcusable before God.
Consistent with that one of the Authors of the Heidelberg catechism wrote;
Ursinus in his Commentary on Heidelberg (p. 506) writes,
“Furthermore, although natural demonstrations teach nothing concerning God that is false, yet men, without the knowledge of God’s word, obtain nothing from them except false notions and conceptions of God; both because these demonstrations do not contain as much as is delivered in his word, and also because even those things which may be understood naturally, men, nevertheless, on account of innate corruption and blindness, receive and interpret falsely, and so corrupt it in various ways.”
So you see Joshua, I am surfing on the wave of Historic Calvinism.
Zacharias Ursinus
Commentary on Heidelberg Catechism
JA writes,
Van Til and Rushdooney are right – there is no neutrality. No Reformed writer ever suggested otherwise.
BLMc responds,
That second sentence is completely untrue. Anyone who argues that fallen man can read Natural Law aright is arguing for neutrality. Man, without presupposing the God of the Bible, and so starting from himself uses his autonomous powers as a neutral being to determine what is in and what is out.
JA writes,
What the Reformers also said was that the heathen can recognise enough moral truth to admit that Christianity is the true religion, but won’t submit to Christ until regenerated.
BLMc responds,
Got some quotes down that line?
JA writes,
Their ability to recognise moral truth means that enough law and order can exist to make life livable and evangelism possible. The problem is when Christians are content with that, and stop short of evangelizing every divine institution – family, church and state.
BLMc responds,
Not true as I have already demonstrated.